From navigating gender bias to dealing with systemic issues like the pay gap, women have long faced challenges in the workplace. These challenges and more have led to what’s commonly known as the “women’s leadership gap,” or the underrepresentation of women in leadership, most notably in the C-suite.
In honor of Women’s History Month, in this episode of The Business of Learning, we spoke with Cathrin Stickney, founder and CEO of Parity.org, and Dr. Theresa Horne, CPTM, a speaker and government leader, to learn more about the women’s leadership gap — and how learning and development (L&D) can help.
Listen now for insights on:
- Systemic barriers to women’s advancement at work, and actionable solutions that can help.
- The role of coaching, mentoring and sponsorship in developing female leaders.
- Ensuring women have equal access to leadership development opportunities as men.
Listen Now:
Additional Resources:
- Research report: “Women’s Access to Leadership Development“
- Gender Barriers and Solutions to Leadership
- 3 Ways L&D Can Support Black Women in the Workplace
- Course: Leading Leadership Development Certificate
Download the complimentary job aid below, “Aligning KPIs to Organizational Goals,” courtesy of Training Industry’s Leading Leadership Certificate program.
The transcript for this episode follows:
Speaker:
Welcome to The Business of Learning, the learning leader’s podcast for Training Industry.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Welcome back to the Business of Learning. I’m Michelle Eggleston Schwartz, editor in chief at Training Industry, here with my co-host Sarah Gallo, a senior editor.
Sarah Gallo:
Welcome. Before we get started, here’s a brief message from Training Industry research.
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Sarah Gallo:
Women have long faced challenges in the workplace, from navigating gender bias and the boys club mentality that is still present in some organizations today, to dealing with more systemic issues like the pay gap and an overall lack of support for working mothers. These challenges have led to what’s commonly referred to as the women’s leadership gap or the under-representation of women in leadership, and most notably in the C-suite. While these challenges aren’t new, the COVID-19 pandemic has set us back even further, with McKinsey research finding that although women made up 39% of global employment in 2020, they accounted for 54% of overall job losses. The good news is that learning and development leaders can help bridge the gap and drive a more equitable future. So as we record this episode during Women’s History Month, we’re excited to speak with Cathrin Stickney, founder and CEO of Parity.org, and Dr. Theresa Horne, a Certified Professional in Training Management, and a speaker and government leader, about women’s leadership development. Dr. Horne and Cathrin, welcome to the podcast.
Dr. Theresa Horne:
Thanks, Sarah. Great to see you again.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Yes, welcome. We’re excited to have you here today. To get things started with the conversation, why don’t you each share more about the current state of women in leadership in terms of parity?
Cathrin Stickney:
The way that we look at gender parity and leadership is really through two things, economically, equal pay, and also representation. And it’s particularly important at the top because the gender gap is really, that’s where it’s the widest is at the top in leadership, particularly the C-suite. I guess Dr. Horne, you’d probably agree with me that it’s vice president and above. Some would even say at the manager level and above, but also on the board. So that’s where at Parity.org, we focus our attention.
Dr. Theresa Horne:
Yeah, I think you’re spot on, Cathrin, with that. The only thing that I would truly add to the discussion is when we think about how we get there, it doesn’t happen overnight. This happens through sort of an unconscious bias in our hiring, in our recruiting, in our promotions, in how we look at how we give assignments to individuals. And so, I think that’s another thing that we have to really scale it back to say, “How did we get to this place where we don’t see women in the top of organizations?”
And then when you strip all those layers away, you start seeing that it starts at the very bottom. Even those middle managers who can’t take particular assignments, because those assignments say that they have to move for six months or three months. Where if you are a woman with children, that’s a very tough ask to be away from your family for three months to six months, to take on a new assignment. And so you have male counterparts that are able to take those assignments, get that experience, meet the people, network, and then they promote up the chain. When we scale it back and strip it away, a lot of it is that we have to look at what we do daily in our daily activities, to create that disparity between groups.
Cathrin Stickney:
The actual facts are pretty astounding, and a lot of people may not even realize it, but only 1 in 5 leaders at the C-suite level, vice president level is a woman. And a woman of color, only 1 in 25. So it’s such a stark reality that we’re dealing with, and I know a lot of women coming up through the ranks and in business today, probably not even thinking about, “Gee, there really aren’t very many of us up there, and it’s been how many years that we’ve been struggling with this to correct it?”
Dr. Theresa Horne:
Yeah. And even with, I think, when you get to that spot, the loneliness, the feeling of being the other, or the pressure of being the one woman that has to carry all women issues on their back, I think that alone causes burnout. It causes women to not want those roles, because not only are they dealing with the operational side of the business at that level that a man would have to deal with, they’re dealing with those additional burdens on gender, and then being the spokesperson, and then being the other in the room. And so, it becomes burdensome for them, even when they make it to that role. And then we see sort of, I don’t know the numbers on this, how many get that role and how many leave, that we don’t retain in that level of a position.
Cathrin Stickney:
Yeah, when you think about having just one woman or even two, you need at least a third of an executive team before you can actually see any results from having that diversity. Unfortunately, when it’s just one woman say, around the conference table, there’s a lot of pressure for that woman to act like everybody else in the room and to start taking on that kind of speech, mannerisms and thinking style as well. And if you don’t have anybody else to feed off of, that’s like you or has a similar background to you, you start assimilating into the group. And that’s the worst thing that could actually happen is because then, you have no diversity. Everybody becomes, even though you have a woman in the room, everybody’s thinking and talking and saying the same thing, which is not what we’re talking about for diversity. So it’s really important to expand women, people of color around the table, to where you have at least a third. If you’re not going to go, 50/50, at least get this 33%.
Dr. Theresa Horne:
I agree. I a hundred percent agree that we see that. I was actually speaking with another leader who was on a hiring panel, and so we’ve gone with putting EEO professionals on hiring panels to make sure that things are happening appropriately in how we’re selecting people. And afterwards, I had a female leader reach out to me and she said she felt a lot of pressure to choose the female, that was the only female person that they had interviewed. And she said she thought in her mind that they would think that she wanted to select the only female, so she didn’t. And so, it was almost this reverse psychology of, “I know I’m the one woman in here, and they think that I’m going to select the woman because I’m a woman,” and then you don’t.
Cathrin Stickney:
That’s the reverse bias. Right?
Dr. Theresa Horne:
Right.
Cathrin Stickney:
Men in the last hundred years have never once thought that, “If I select a man, I’m being biased for men.”
Dr. Theresa Horne:
Right, right. Exactly.
Cathrin Stickney:
Why are we thinking that?
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Yeah, that’s a good example there. I’d love to unpack some of the root causes for the lack of parity when it comes to women in leadership positions. What systemic challenges have really held women back from moving into leadership positions?
Cathrin Stickney:
I think we can probably both come up with a large list for this, but I look at it in two buckets. Home, what’s happening at home, and what’s happening at work. And systemically at home, women have an unequal burden to carry from a care standpoint. And even going beyond the two person, two parent household, 80% of single parent households are women. So by having that unequal care burden, being a single parent as that are more women than men experiencing that, they struggle a lot as they move up the ladder with the expectations. That when a company hasn’t built in benefits or programs or services that support a caregiver who’s got responsibilities outside of the office, they really struggle to be able to take that next assignment, to take that promotion, because of what it might mean to the care their aging parents might get, their children might get. It’s that unequal burden is just unacceptable, actually.
And then at work, I’m sure Dr. Horne has a whole list here, but unconscious bias, lack of mentors, lack of sponsors, a limited access to training, and education and development that would help them move up the ladder. But I’ll turn it over to Dr. Horne to add to this.
Dr. Theresa Horne:
You hit all the points there, and I just want to foot stomp one of the areas here when we talk about lack of sponsorship. And you hit a buzzword for me, because I think that how we look at sponsorship should shift a little bit. Usually what we do is we say, “Find a female sponsor that can help you move up the ladder,” when in actuality, you need the male sponsor. You need the majority to be there, to help you move into that spotlight. And so really seeking out male sponsors is something that I would tell women to really focus their efforts on. Is to find someone who is an ally, who does recognize that you have a voice in something to share at that level, and they’ll assist you in doing so.
The next one I would say too is that, and this is more internal. This is, I believe we count ourselves out a lot. We say, “Well, I can’t do that. No one else has done it,” or, “It’s not for me,” or, “It’s too tough,” or, “I don’t have everything on the job description, so I’m not going to apply.” I’ve heard this from many female leaders, or even those who were in the pipeline for leadership. I was working with an organization and they were asking me, “We have this leadership role and no one’s applying for it, and no one on the team applied. No one wants the role, and we’re trying to figure out why.” And so, after doing some of the baseline assessment of what’s going on in the office, is there some underlying tension there? We found that one, the women who work in the office who were right in line, second in line to take the role, said that they did not feel like the role was good for work-life balance.
And so they were looking at it and saying, “Hey, in order for me to be a leader, I have to work until nine o’clock at night because that’s what my supervisor who’s in that role is doing, and I don’t want that for my life.” And so, a lot of it is we count ourselves out by looking at what another person does with a role, versus what we would do in that capacity. And so, I had to go back and talk to these females second in line and say, “Hey, when you’re in that role, you have the power to do it the way you want to do it.” That leader may say, “I do better at nighttime. I get to focus on something when the phone’s not ringing, so I’m going to work until nine.” But you may get in there and say, “Hey, I have a hard stop. I have time with my family after 5:30,” and that’s okay, too.
And so, we have to get into this place of allowing women to flex in their roles and do it the way they would do it, knowing that they have their own special recipe of how to perform.
Cathrin Stickney:
That’s such good advice that you’re giving. And I also believe that the company has a special responsibility to make sure that culturally, women can do that. And that the benefits are there, the programs and services and just the culture, to be able to say that’s okay, and not stigmatize women for leaving at 5:30 to take care of their family. And, to encourage men to leave at 5:30 and help support and take care of their family, bond with their children, and the importance of having that balanced life.
Dr. Theresa Horne:
Yeah, and you’re so right. And it takes us to first be the person to do it, because you’re coming into a system that has already been built around men where they can stay all night long, versus now us coming into these leadership roles. If we do what they do, nothing ever changes. So we have to get into those roles and say, “Hey, this is not okay, and this is why. The culture should be this way.” And I think, not only will we benefit from it, but also men in leadership will benefit from it. They’ll get a breath of fresh air to say, “Okay, this is the way work should really be done.”
Cathrin Stickney:
And frankly, I believe that men just as much as anybody, wants to have a home life and a family.
Dr. Theresa Horne:
Yes.
Cathrin Stickney:
They’re stressed. They are not wanting to work until 10 or 11 at night, or whatever the case might be. Everybody wants this balance. It’s just difficult for men to speak up about it because they’re not used to having that-
Dr. Theresa Horne:
They’re in the system as well.
Cathrin Stickney:
They’re in the system. Exactly. We have to change the thinking of how we look at this, perceive ourselves, and perceive what work is and what results are, and how we get them. We learned that during COVID we can get results in a lot of different ways that we didn’t anticipate, and we need to hold onto that because that was really valuable for people who have responsibilities outside of the workplace.
Dr. Theresa Horne:
Yeah. Yeah.
Sarah Gallo:
That’s huge. I love that advice about setting boundaries and really the importance of leaders doing that, whether it’s just blocking off an hour, or on your lunch break to get some fresh air, or having a hard stop at five o’clock, not emailing after hours. Because team members really do look up to their leaders and they’ll think that’s normal.
Dr. Theresa Horne:
Yes. Yes.
Sarah Gallo:
Very huge. I think it’s clear that a lot of these barriers are kind of structural, and it can be hard to know how to even begin tackling them. So how do you think that companies can really just get started in combating some of these issues?
Dr. Theresa Horne:
Well, I’ll just say, really partnering with your diversity and inclusion office is important. I lead a diversity and inclusion office, so I understand that shifting culture is hard. That is not an easy thing to do, and it is a very layered approach to how you do business, how you think, how you live the values of your organization. And so, that’s one of the things that I would tell people to do. If you’re trying to shift a culture, partner with your diversity and inclusion office because they’re already in that engine, trying to make that same change already. But if there are some key things that you see as a woman, as a minority, as a veteran, or a person with a disability, these are things that you can speak up about and make sure that your voice is heard throughout the organization, versus you as a singular individual person trying to make change within your small bubble.
So please get with your diversity and inclusion offices. Lean heavily on them for those policies that need to be put in place, for the guidance that needs to be put in place. And so, your voices will be heard through a group like that. And so if your organization does not have one, let’s reel that back to organizations that do not have one, or have not invested in one. I think that is a clear message to employees at this point and where we are today. If they have not started this team or that role within the last three years, then they are tone-deaf. And so if they haven’t, I think that’s a clear message that you’re probably not at the right organization.
Cathrin Stickney:
I think another way, I couldn’t agree with that more. It’s rare to see these days, an organization that hasn’t invested in at least a diversity leader, much less a department. But I do think that a very important thing that is not practiced in every company but has huge impact, is male leaders as role models. And I say that in the sense of when the CEO or a male on the C-suite has a new addition to their family, say new child through adoption or birth, that they take the three months or whatever it is that the company is giving them for leave. And they take it and show the company that it’s okay to take care of your family, and be attentive and successful, and contributing at work and not just leave that for women.
When women take, I’m just going to use the three months, I know it varies from six weeks to six months, but let’s just say three months. Woman takes three months off, and her male peer at the company takes two weeks off or a week off when they have a child. She’s behind in pay, bonus, promotions where he’s being rewarded, even though he’s had a child. He’s rewarded by being able to stay at work, because let’s say he has a spouse taking care of the children that were just new to the family, for as an example, and they are able to continue on with their career. They’re not dinged when it comes to promotions or pay raises.
And this is one of the contributing factors to having this pay gap, having women not being promoted who want to be promoted, who should be, and we’ve really got to change the mindset with men at the top to take these benefits, not just leave these benefits for women to take. And it’s not a stigma. You need to take that stigma away from men. And the best way to do that is through a CEO, particularly, or a C-suite male. If you have time, I have a little example of this, Sarah and Michelle. We ask companies to take the parity pledge, which is a public commitment to just interview women. And one of the things we have, as we say, men should take their full benefits.
So this was a tech company CEO. He took this to heart. He had his first child and he took three months off, and bonded with that child. But the really remarkable story was I saw him a year later at a conference, and he was with his head of sales, a man who had just had his baby. And I said, “Oh, did you take time off for your baby? Did you take the three months off?” He said, “Yes, I did.” I said, “Would you have done that if the CEO had not done that?” He goes, “No way. No way.” He said, “Because he took it off, I knew it was okay for me to take it off.” And then women in the company who had a baby would not feel put upon by taking their three months, feeling like, “I hate to do this because it’s going to impact my career.” Yet everybody’s on an equal playing field with this. It really makes a huge difference.
Dr. Theresa Horne:
Yeah. I love that idea of the parity pledge. I’m going to steal that, Cathrin.
Cathrin Stickney:
You can take it anytime, Dr. Horne.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
That’s such a good point. Culturally, male leaders, they need to do that. And so it becomes more culturally ingrained and everyone’s on the same playing field.
Cathrin Stickney:
Role models, it’s all about role models for this, and you can change the culture through male role models.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Definitely. Thank you for sharing. It’s so good to know that there are tangible steps organizations can take, to be more inclusive and support women leadership development moving forward. We’ll consider how training can be a part of the solution, after a few words from our sponsor.
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Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Now that we’ve covered how companies on an organizational level can better support women’s leadership development, can you each share more about training’s role here?
Cathrin Stickney:
Yeah, I’ll go ahead and start. I think that I see training in a lot of ways. I mean, we can do diversity training, which some say has a great impact, and some organizations feel like, “Well, we can’t not do it. We have to create that awareness.” And I think for training at that level, for those areas, I think it’s how you train and creating empathy, not being punitive for, “You shouldn’t have done that,” that sort of thing. But I think beyond that, it’s development of women allowing them, I think Dr. Horne said this earlier, to make sure that they’re getting equal opportunity to stretch assignments, and that’s training. Encouraging women to rotate into different jobs every couple years in your organization, to learn the organization. In my history of working in companies, I only saw men rotating around the company into different jobs, and getting that exposure and experience that would get them that next promotion.
So to me, that’s all part of the training and education, is the actual development of high potential women and men up through the organization. All of those are really important. I can’t say enough about the importance of education, and training along with that. It’s one of the things that without it, you’re not going to gain the kinds of experiences and skillsets that you need to move up the ladder.
Dr. Theresa Horne:
One of the areas that I would tell a training manager to focus on, because it’s a vast field and a vast market, once you get into the diversity inclusion, equity, accessibility game. So what I would tell them to do, and this will make their jobs easier, so much easier, is to really align with employee resource groups. So they are the voice of those employees. They will tell you what they need if you are there to listen. A part of that I think, is understanding that there is an intersectionality between these groups. So I’m a woman, but I’m also a black woman, but I’m also a black woman veteran, but I’m also a black woman who is a mother and a veteran. And so all of these intersecting pieces of who I am should have a place in that organization, and my needs for any of those intersections may differ.
And so, it’s important for, I believe the training department or training head when they’re thinking through their strategy, to include those employee resource group leaders to say, “Hey, what are the conversations that are happening around the organization? Where are the gaps that we see you are having, in terms of getting up the leadership pipeline?” Because it’s going to differ based off that intersectionality. So you’ll have a male that’s there that’s white, but that is gay, and they’ll say, “I’m seeing this kind of boundary,” but taking them as just a white male, you’d say, “Well, you get all of, you have it easy.” Not necessarily, based on that intersectionality. And so it’s important I think, for training managers to really start looking at not doing this on an island. Yes, you are probably the gurus in this space of how to develop employees, but you really need in terms of content, to talk to the people who will be taking that training and then that will help you build out your strategy.
Sarah Gallo:
I love that. None of us are just one thing. Right.
Cathrin Stickney:
I do think that it’s important also to raise awareness of people, of your own biases that you bring into the organization. We all have biases in our life that we grew up with and still hold, and some control it better than others. But I do think that it’s important to make sure there’s some sort of a program. Typically, this would come through the training organization to create more of a sense of empathy for others, and appreciation of differences for others.
And I’ve been through my own non-discrimination kind of training. I teach at NYU and I have to do that every year, and I did in all of my other former employers. And it needs to be more than rote. It has to, as opposed to just checking off a box. I actually personally believe that training is helpful in creating awareness, but I think that there’s value in bringing people together. And maybe it’s through intersections of ERGs or other employees coming together, seeing the world particularly underrepresented in people’s eyes, so that they can see the experience others are having that they may not be having.
Dr. Theresa Horne:
Yeah, I agree a hundred percent. And I believe that unconscious bias is one of those topics that can span in multiple layers. So for instance, an unconscious bias and cultural inclusivity course that I created has not only unconscious and conscious bias, and understanding the differences and the nuance between how we treat both of those, but then it goes a little deeper. And again, it goes back to me always wanting to peel back that layer to get to the root. And we look at microaggressions and stereotypes that happen in the workplace. So how does it show up in those really subtle ways that make you think like, “Was that okay or not?” Or, “That makes me feel weird.”
And so I think, it’s when you put it out there and you say, for instance, one of the conversation pieces that we have that get people talking is one of the microaggressions that we’ve heard in the office is something like, “I’m OCD about my work.” And people are like, “I’ve said that before.” And it’s like, “Yeah, a lot of us have.” But not understanding that that’s a microaggression. Or, “I don’t see color. I see humans.” Different things that we hear that we may not have known, much to what you were saying, Cathrin, around where you grow up, you may have heard or seen these and not attributed to, it could harm someone.
And so our training sometimes is the first time people have that aha moment, when they get to see the actual terms that they use and how that could make another person feel. I think that resonates, more than us continuing to talk about what is unconscious bias and you have your own, but never really pinpointing a person’s bias because it’s internal to them. So we can never teach that out of a person. They have to want to do that themselves. And so, it’s one of those things that when we think about training, and this is for training managers to really start digging into, is peel back the layer on unconscious bias, right? Talk about microaggressions, talk about stereotypes, talk about cultural differences and how that shows up. And so, those pieces are what people can truly see quite easily, when you lay it out for them there.
Sarah Gallo:
Yeah, that’s great. I guess this next question is kind of twofold, but I want to dig a little bit deeper into making sure that women have the leadership skills they need, so that when they move into a leadership position, they’re prepared to be successful. What are those skills? And then going off of that, how can we make sure that women have equal access to these leadership training programs as men? How can we make sure that, that’s fair and equitable as well?
Cathrin Stickney:
One thing that I think is really emerging in the last few years, because of a lot of things that have taken place in our society, but I think for a leader to be successful these days, they really need empathy and emotional intelligence. I look at those two things as the new block and tackling skills. I can’t tell you how often the men in the companies I’ve worked in say, “Oh, that’s just block and tackling,” football terms, and that’s just the basic things that you need to be able to do in order to be successful. I would hear all the time that a new leader in the C-suite, great at block and tackling type of thing.
But I really think empathy and emotional intelligence is the new block and tackling. Is that if you bring that to work, you really start to understand your employees, what drives them, what motivates them. And frankly, beyond your employees, to really understand what drives and motivates your customers, and to understand them and what they’re thinking. I often say that your values are your brand. How you feel and treat your employees, how you understand your customers, all makes a huge difference. I think that’s one of the key new skills that a leader has to have. And by the way, women have plenty of that when they come to the job. They tend to have that in a great amount, but men can bring that, too. If you asked me to name one thing, that it would be that.
Dr. Theresa Horne:
Yeah, I have that one on my list as well, for sure. Empathy and emotional intelligence is something that I think is a part of that package of becoming a leader. The one that I would specifically tell women to have on their list that is not typically on any leadership list, and I’m attempting to change this at my organization as well, is negotiation and persuasion. And the reason why I say that is that you’re going to come up against people, the higher up that you go in an organization, who do not want to listen to you, who do not believe you. And it could be because you’re a woman, it could be because you’re a newcomer. It could be because you’re the other. We don’t know the reason why, but you will face it, I promise you. And so, being prepared to face it when it does arise, you need to have that negotiation and persuasion skill to know how to have those tough conversations and still get something out of it.
You may not get everything, but if you know how to navigate a conversation where you’re in control, I think that puts you at a great starting point for you to push a lot of the initiatives that you would hope to do in a leadership role, because that’s a part of what leaders have to do is strategize, and then figure out how that strategy will be successful. So being able to negotiate those moves and then persuade others to jump on board with you are going to be a skill that will help any woman. I think it’ll help men as well, but they sort of roll into that sort of feeling, that they have friends around them that will listen to them, whereas women are battling that from the time they come in the door, usually.
The second one that I would say here is to really look into upward bullying and downward bullying. I can’t remember the doctor that did this dissertation on this, but it was profound. I had him come out and speak to a group of leaders, and they had a big aha moment around what upward bullying means. And this happens often to women leaders in his research that he had done, because of course, they get into this seat, and if you’re leading maybe a male team, they may be a little more forceful with you on what they would like to do or what they’re not going to do. And so, bullying happens not only from a manager down to a subordinate, but it can happen from a subordinate to a manager. And so being mindful of that and how to react to that when it occurs is going to be something that, I think women should really at least do research on beforehand. So I would say that training piece is something to look into.
And then the last one is, just knowing your leadership philosophy. What makes you different from that other person? What drives you to be a leader? And if you don’t have the answer to that and you don’t know what that is, then you should probably wait on being a leader, right? Don’t do it because it’s the next step in your career. Don’t do it because you want more money. It has to be something deeper as to why you want to lead other people. So, because it is a human element to the job, you can be a technical guru and not have to be a leader. So when you opt in to leading others, it’s all about people. And so, learn what your leadership philosophy is, work that out within yourself or through a leadership, coaching, mentoring type of relationship, so that you know who you are when you become a leader. And when those times get tough, you can lean back on what your philosophy is and why you’re there in the first place.
Cathrin Stickney:
Maybe I could tag onto that for a second. One of the things that I’ve always would add to that, because I think that’s great, is could you answer a question today based on your leadership philosophy? And I would add values. And will you answer that question the same way, under the same conditions, a year later? That tells you that you are being driven through your philosophies and your values, the way that you can answer those questions, even if you don’t remember how you answered it a year ago. When you answer it the same way, you’re really centered on your philosophy and your values as a person and as a leader.
I would add one more to this list, ethical leadership. I think that’s kind of a new one. I’ve never been trained in the workplace, but I should have been. All of us should be. And I think we’re in a particularly interesting time in the world in culture with social media and ChatGPT, and a variety of situations and circumstances that we could be challenged ethically. We need to know that what we’re reading is correct, that what we’re seeing is a fact and truly a fact, and that we’re not being unethical by the information that we have, and using that to lead or manage. I just think that’s one that I haven’t seen on a list before, that I think in this day and age is really valuable, for a leader to lead from an ethical starting point in their communication, in their business transactions, et cetera. There’s so much opportunity to not be ethical, because of what we see out in the media and on social media.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Definitely, those are all critical skills for women to effectively lead. And I love what you guys said there, in terms of knowing your leadership philosophy and leading through your values, and how that’s really going to serve women well. Love that. I’d like to shift gears a little bit and talk about coaching, mentoring, and sponsorship. How can coaching, mentoring and sponsorship help to amplify women’s voices at work, and give them the skills and opportunities they need to advance their careers?
Dr. Theresa Horne:
Great question. Great question. So I’ll tell you sort of my take on the three. So you have coaching, which I think is useful when you’re looking at how you react as a leader in the role. And so, I would say even, coaching is useful to me as a leader. When I was not a leader, it was kind of a weird relationship where I was looking more for the mentorship and less for the coaching. And so that could be different for other people. But for me, I wanted a mentor before I was a leader. And then once I became a leader, I needed someone that I could talk to, that could coach me through some of the issues that I was not used to seeing. Because I was a technical expert before, and coming into dealing with people is a whole new world. So that coach to me, at that particular level was right.
And so, having an understanding of when you use the three, right, because the first thing you want to go out and do is say, “I’m going to get a coach. I’m going to get a mentor. I’m going to get a sponsor.” And that may not be the right anecdote for you. And so, I think it’s important for us to know when to have it and then what that relationship means and what you should get out of it. And so the mentorship relationship that I had prior to becoming a leader allowed me to learn the skills, the people skills. They were there to bring me under their wing and talk to me about the things that I was interested in. So they were in my same technical field. The coach does not have to be in your same technical field.
And so, the sponsor that you have, which I also had as a leader, but more as an established leader, not as a new leader. And so when I had a sponsor, it was more so to help me get into the executive level. That’s what that person was, there to usher me into rooms that I could not get into myself. And so they were sponsoring me saying, “Hey, I am already included. I want to include this new person into our conversations.” That was when I was ready to get into that higher level echelon, but I did all of the work with a mentor and a coach prior to that, to prepare me to be in those conversations. And so, I think that’s going to be an important thing that I would say to distinguish between the three, is when you have it and what you get out of them.
Cathrin Stickney:
Yeah, I completely agree. There’s little more to say than that. I think you really hit the nail on the head with your comments. I think what women really need is access, visibility, advocacy, and you get that through sponsors. And maybe, Dr. Horne, I maybe take it down a level below the executive level. Every company does a rack and stack of who’s going to get paid what every year, and they start stacking and putting people at their various levels of the organization. And in those meetings, and I’ve led those meetings, I’ve been in those meetings, talking about my employees and they’re managers, directors, vice presidents that reported to me. And I had somebody in particular, or two people that I wanted to be promoted. And so I’m in there with my peers, and we’re all deciding who’s going to get promoted, because everybody can’t get promoted.
And if you don’t have an advocate, a sponsor in that meeting, you won’t get access to the jobs. You won’t get the visibility you need to be considered for that job. And that can happen typically at the VP level and above. Definitely, as you get toward the C-suite, if you’re looking at a job in the C-suite, you need to have big time sponsorship. Think of it as maybe the step before sponsorship is access, visibility, advocacy. Allies can do that, right? Male and female allies in the organization can talk about you without you being in the room. That’s true sponsorship. That’s advocacy for you. To do it at those critical times and during the quote, unquote, “Racket stack times of the year,” is essential for women to get that increase in their pay, that bonus level, that job or promotion. So I would just add that to the good comments that Dr. Horne just made.
Dr. Theresa Horne:
And I’ll just, I’ll piggyback on that too, is if you are in, let’s say a role where you don’t have a coach, a mentor or sponsor at this time, and you have a supervisor that is willing to help you, listen to what your needs are, then take the bull by the horns. You need to have those meetings with your supervisor if they’re open to it, to advocate for yourself.
And so we have to remember that we are a part of this. It’s not someone doing anything for us. We are driving our own careers. We’re driving where we would like to go. We assume that our supervisors or managers know that we want to be leaders one day, or know what our path is, but it’s really innately internal to you. Some people do not want to lead other people. They want to be subject matter experts. And so until that leader knows what you want to do and you’ve sat them down and said, “Hey, I either want your job or I want to be your boss one day,” then they can assist you with getting there. And having those conversations should be led by you, and not so much of you waiting for someone to come and assist you in your career planning.
Cathrin Stickney:
And there’s no lack of desire on the part of women to get ahead. 27% of white women aspire to be senior executives, and 41% of women of color aspire to be senior executives. It’s what happens to them when they have that desire. And I’ve done some writing and studying in the fashion industry, and it actually plays out in other industries as well. But when women come into an organization and men come into an organization, men don’t even think about aspiring to the top role, where women are 15 points higher than men in aspiring for a top role.
It’s at that intersection where they cross at the manager level that men realize, “Hey, I can get that job.” And they start aspiring for the top. And women realize, “Oh, I don’t think I can get that job because of the inherent structural issues, personal and work issues that don’t make it easy.” And their line starts to flatten out, where men are accelerating at a fast speed toward, “I want that top job.” And we have to find them at that intersection where that happens and say, “It’s okay to aspire to that job and we’re here to help you as a company to be equally considered for that job.” So there’s not a lack of desire. It wanes for women, but it increases for men. We have to make sure that women are allowed to stay on that track as they move on.
Sarah Gallo:
Yeah, certainly. I love that. Well, Cathrin and Dr. Horne, this has been such a great and insightful conversation, and I’m sure we could go on and on and on for much longer on this topic, but before we do wrap up here today, do you have any final takeaways that you’d like to share?
Dr. Theresa Horne:
I guess my only takeaway is to really empower women to take their careers into their own hands, right? You have the power to get to where you really want to go in any organization, and if you can’t do it in the current organization, you start looking for another. Because there is something to be said about a woman who’s able to go out and get what she wants. And so use those resources, network, find yourself a good coach, mentor, and sponsor along your journey, and really be focused on your goal. There is nothing that can stop you. There are no boundaries that are too high for you, and I think that’s the one thing that we need to remember. That there are boundaries, but they are not too high to scale.
Cathrin Stickney:
I would add, and maybe piggyback on that, I do think that if women could have done it themselves, we would have a whole different world here today. I do a hundred percent agree that women should follow that great advice that Dr. Horne just said. It’s really important, but it’s equally as important to have organizations fix the systemic issues that are in their organization, that are holding women back. Women aren’t holding women back. Maybe we have some self-talk that we talked about earlier, not taking a job or something, but that is not what’s keeping us from getting ahead.
The responsibility is not just with individual women and with themselves and improving themselves, but it’s also at the company level, at the organizational level. Companies, male leaders need to do things differently, to see a more diverse outcome at the top and throughout the organization. I love what you just said. I want to add, the company has a special responsibility as well to eliminate roadblocks for women and people of color to get ahead.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Definitely cannot agree more. Those are great insights, and thank you so much for being here today. I’ve really enjoyed this conversation. How can our listeners get in touch with you after the episode, if they’d like to reach out to you?
Dr. Theresa Horne:
Wonderful. Well, they can reach me on LinkedIn under Dr. Theresa Horne, or they can find my website www.drtheresahorne.com.
Cathrin Stickney:
And they can reach out to me at cathrin@parity.org, or go straight to Parity.org. Our website is also the name of our company, is also the name of our website, our URL, so very easy to get in touch with me.
Sarah Gallo:
To learn more about women’s leadership development and to view the highlights from today’s episode in animation, visit the show notes for this episode at trainingindustry.com/trainingindustrypodcast.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
And don’t forget to rate and review us on your favorite podcast app. Until next time.
Speaker:
If you have feedback about this episode or would like to suggest a topic for a future program, email us at info@trainingindustry.com or use the contact us page at trainingindustry.com. Thanks for listening to the Training Industry podcast.
