In the modern workplace, social learning is in full swing, with digital collaboration tools and social networks driving a culture of peer-to-peer learning.
In this episode, sponsored by CrossKnowledge, we spoke with Kacie Walters (head of global professional development at Northern Trust Corporation), Linda Cai (an experienced learning and talent executive and author of “Share: How Organizations Can Thrive in an Age of Networked Knowledge, Power and Relationships”), and Nicole Lembo (manager of academic programs at JetBlue Airways) to find out how learning leaders can enable social learning in the workplace.
Listen now to learn more on:
- How to create a culture of social learning.
- Social and informal learning in a remote work environment.
- Measuring the impact of social learning.
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For more insights on training delivery modalities, download this e-book:
Additional Resources:
- Infographic: Testing the Modern Reality of 70-20-10
- Infographic: Creating a Social Learning Culture in the Modern Workplace
- Research Report: Deconstructing 70-20-10
- The Business of Learning, Episode 31 – Enabling On-the-job Coaching: The Role of L&D
The transcript for this episode follows:
Sarah:
Hey there. Welcome to the Business of Learning. I’m Sarah Gallo, an editor at Training Industry.
Taryn:
I’m Taryn Oesch DeLong, managing editor of digital content at Training Industry. This episode of the Business of Learning is sponsored by CrossKnowledge.
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CrossKnowledge empowers global organizations to continuously develop a skilled workforce, with a multi-awarded digital learning solution. Cross Knowledge uniquely combines digital content for the most in-demand skills, a powerful learning platform and expert capabilities, to create impactful learning experiences. For over 20 years, Cross Knowledge is recognized as a true partner for effective skill-building at scale, with unmatched expertise and accountability. Cross Knowledge is part of Wiley, a leader in research and education and serves 500 clients, reaching 12 million learners.
Sarah:
Developed in the 1980s, the 70-20-10 model, which states that employees get 70% of their knowledge from on-the-job experiences, 20% from social interactions with others and 10% from formal learning events, is still commonly used today. Training Industry recently updated the model to reflect the modern workplace and found that social learning is more important than ever. As we record this episode in March 2021, social learning is in full swing, with digital collaboration tools and social networks driving a culture of peer-to-peer learning. Today, we’re speaking with Kacie Walters, head of global professional development at Northern Trust Corporation, Linda Cai, an experienced learning and talent executive and author of “Share: How Organizations Can Thrive in an Age of Networked Knowledge, Power and Relationships,” and Nicole Lembo, manager of academic programs at JetBlue Airways. Casey, Linda, Nicole. Welcome to the podcast.
Nicole:
Thank you.
Linda:
Thank you.
Kacie:
Thanks, I’m happy to be here.
Taryn:
Alright, so to kick us off, could each of you provide your definition of social learning? Kacie, let’s start with you.
Kacie:
Yeah, social learning has come a long way. I mean, I think it has its roots in a theory that was developed back in the late ’70s, if I remember my learning correctly, about learning through direct observation instead of in the classroom. But honestly, social learning for me really means to be learning from one another, whether that’s through a mentorship, a group, a community, job shadowing. I mean there’s lots of different ways we can enact a social learning strategy. But I think it very much is learning from one another, peer-to-peer learning is how I would define social learning.
Taryn:
Thank you. And Linda, what do you think?
Linda:
I think that’s said beautifully, Kacie. So I’m not going to repeat. I’ll just add two things. One is, I think a lot of the most profound behavioral inferencing components are connected to social learning. Things like storytelling, [or] things [that are] reinforced by habits. All of these are probably more obvious in [a] group learning setting. The other thing I would point out is, I think some people have associated social learning with social media-based learning. I think that’s certainly not incorrect. It’s just a more narrow definition of social learning.
Taryn:
That’s a great point. It’s definitely what’s on our minds these days, but it’s so much more … and we’re going to get into that. Nicole, do you have anything to add to these definitions?
Nicole:
I mean Kacie and Linda are providing beautiful explanations of this. The way I look at it is, I think [social learning is all of that] plus, if it fits beyond a formalized training structure, then we can consider it social learning. It’s not like, “Here’s exactly how you do your job, welcome to it.” Anything beyond that, is [social learning and is] exciting and Kacie, you’re absolutely right, it’s Bandura’s Social Learning Theory. I was just brushing up on that and I was like, “Yeah, I vaguely remember learning that at some point.”
Kacie:
It has its roots. Decades ago, so it’s been around a long time.
Nicole:
Yeah.
Taryn:
Alright, well thank you for giving us your definitions of social learning. That helps kick us off. Nicole, this kind of goes into what you were just saying. How does it differ from what we would see in more formal training programs?
Nicole:
So I think in my experience, it tends to be much more self-directed by the person seeking that learning. I think it’s often based on a comfortable relationship, or somewhere where there’s really trust already and you feel like you can go to someone and say, “Can you tell me about the work that you do?” Or, “Can I just talk through this with you?” Or, “How do you approach this or that, or the other thing?” I think a lot of that is based on trust and it’s not, “this person is an instructor in this orientation and if you have questions, you are to go to that person.” It’s very informal; it’s self-directed. I think a lot of it is based on kind of your level of social skills too, not to put too fine a point on social learning with social skills. But I think it’s something that people have to practice and get better at, or introverts may have a harder time just approaching someone, which is why I think Kacie and Linda and I are all very excited about opportunities to build social learning in at work for those that it may be a bit more difficult [for]. I’m very social. I’m happy to just pop over to somebody’s desk or ask them for coffee. But that’s not everyone’s comfort level.
Taryn:
That’s a great point. Linda, do you have anything to add there?
Linda:
Yeah, I completely agree. I think that’s absolutely right. I would just add that, I think in my view, formal training initiatives, because you have a social learning component. A couple of examples that come to mind, would be a cohort-based learning. Many boards, so kind of discussion forums, as part of the formal training or learning. So the two are definitely not exclusive to each other. The other point I would say is, what they are good for. To some degree, I quite agree [with] what was said [about] social learning, social skills. I think social learning is really good for situational-based, experience-based kind of skills. How do you develop client relationship? How do you conduct a negotiation? A lot of it is not just black or white. So those are very good [ways] to use your social learning techniques in the format.
Taryn:
Kacie, what about you? Anything to add?
Kacie:
Yeah, I agree completely with Linda. I think pairing formal and informal [learning] together is really sometimes we don’t think of the definition of blended learning in that way, but in my opinion, that is definitely blended learning and we’re seeing social learning as an extension of the formal learning, to Linda’s point, in terms of cohorts, in terms of after class if you will, after virtual class, from a reinforcement perspective. It works quite well to pair people up or have people in small groups learning from one another. The one thing I would say is [that] there’s certainly a difference between social learning and formal learning. But what I see sometimes happen is, and maybe it’s inherent in the word “social,”[but] we think that [social learning is] really organic and that it doesn’t take support or infrastructure to make it work, and I simply disagree with that. I really think to make social learning work, we need certain things in place, and I think some guidance parameters [or] technology to help connect people … and I know we’ll talk about that in a little bit … is really important to help inspire social learning. A lot of people want to learn from one another, but they don’t really know how to go about doing that. They don’t know what questions to ask, or how to interact with others. So helping kind of provide that support, as much as we would for a formal learning event, is also important to make social learning kind of sticky and people to get the most out of it.
Sarah:
Definitely. Nicole, you mentioned something interesting about certain learners that are maybe more introverted, may be a little bit hesitant to engage in social learning in the workplace. Do you have any tips on how we can get them engaged in these programs and really support their learning?
Nicole:
I think at JetBlue, we are very encouraging of collaboration and we say that’s [a] part of the culture, in connecting with your fellow employees. We make it a cultural imperative. But what that means to someone who’s uncomfortable reaching out to someone else is, it’s like, “Well that’s nice, but that’s still really hard for me.” I think part of it can happen during onboarding, even just like Kacie and Linda have said, [taking a] blended approach, right? This person might not be your leader or your instructor when you’re coming on board, but it’s like your buddy. Run things by them if you want to know how the cafeteria works. Great. If you want to know [where to get] your pay stub, things like that. Things where you might feel kind of silly asking because you might be the only person that doesn’t know. I think an onboarding type of buddy system is a really great way to do that. It’s like, “This is why I’m here for you.” So I think that’s a very informal way to do that. But I think beyond, we call them crew leaders. Sorry, I keep using our own, crew leaders, boss, crew member, is just anyone who works at JetBlue. But I think our employees getting encouragement from their leadership has been really crucial. That’s been a big lift from my team as well. In terms of development, especially, [just saying], “Let’s work together to create your development plan. What do you want that to look like? Let’s talk about the ways in which you might be able to access this content, or learn this thing, or develop in this area,” [is helpful]. Sometimes, that’s going to be, “Here’s your online Excel class, but I want you to go talk to this Excel expert afterwards.” [Putting] a little bit of that direction in there for the introverts has been really helpful. I mean, I know I have a woman on my team who just never wants to bother anyone for anything. She’s who I think about when we talk about this. [But if you] put a little bit of structure in, like, “Okay, if you want to learn more about PowerPoint? Here’s a LinkedIn Learning class for you. But also, your colleague over here is outstanding in PowerPoint. So maybe go through that. Come up with some questions and then connect with her.” So, we don’t do this enormous, formalized [type of training]. I think [a lot of the time] we just hope [that social learning] happens organically, and I’m hoping that how Linda and Kacie answer this question will help inform our efforts around this as well.
Linda:
That sounds really interesting, Nicole, what you are describing. JetBlue certainly put a lot of thought into creating that engagement and initial kind of draw. That’s really nice to learn. My thoughts are kind of related toward the role [that] direct managers or others can play in [social learning]. What we realize is [that] sometimes people have the desire, but simply no capacity. So I think from a direct manager perspective, they certainly can play a role to create space and a capacity, [and free] some time for the colleague to be able to engage in social learning and peer culture or mentoring, encouraging them, having that conversation in regular check-ins. All these are very helpful.
Sarah:
Kacie, did you have anything you wanted to add on?
Kacie:
Yeah, I mean I think Nicole, what you were talking about with onboarding buddies [is a great place to start]. That’s where it starts for us as well. I mean, I think the way that we can help people realize how important this is, is when they walk in the door, they are actually assigned an onboarding buddy and that person serves as a mentor to them. We also provide kind of informal connections with our leaders the best [way] we can. So, we have our leaders demonstrating the importance of connection and mentorship and the like, and that’s really helped set the tone and the stage for the rest of the organization to realize how important [social learning] really is. We also have new hires understand their learning and communication styles and the like walking in the door, because [with] social learning it is important to know who you are and how you communicate and how others might communicate, so that you can form a bond [with others] and be able to communicate effectively. So that’s something else that we like to do with new hires, so that they can kind of carry that with them, throughout their whole career at Northern Trust.
Sarah:
Yeah, those are some great tips from all of you. I think it’s also important of course, to consider social learning in a remote context, of course with the rise of remote work right now. As we mentioned, we’re recording this episode in March 2021 and many companies are still remote and may continue to be remote, even after COVID. With that in mind, what tips do you have for creating a culture of social learning in a virtual environment?
Kacie:
Yeah, I can start. But I think culture could be its own episode, for sure. There are just a lot of moving parts to create [a] culture and I would say first, you need to have a culture of learning and development, not just social learning. But I think focusing on people’s development will inspire more of this and personally, I’m sure we’ve all seen this over the last year or so, [I think that] engagement of employees has become critical. I mean, some people are doing fine. Some are very isolated, and we all need to make connections. We need connections from a mental health perspective as well as from a productivity perspective. So I honestly think [that] we’ve had a lot of conversations with leaders. Leaders are concerned about this. I would say, at least in my organization, at the top of the house, they want to ensure people are happy, connected, productive [and] engaged. So really, social learning has been a major pillar of our learning and engagement strategy, because of that. So, I think always enrolling leadership is a key. I think leaders are certainly the carriers of the culture and so that’s where we have engaged is at the top of the house to really say that, learning engagement connection is at the core of what we do as a company and then from there, we can take it down to social learning as a strategy, if you will, to help people engage and so that’s something that’s been successful for us. We do still measure engagement quite a lot and so people know that their opinions matter and that also kind of goes back to reinforcing the culture, that you’re asked about your development and therefore, we’ve made that a priority. But I know there’s a lot of other things we could do to influence culture, but that’s just a little bit about what we have done in that space.
Linda:
Yeah, I love your point, Kacie, around enrolling leadership because that is so critical. We encounter it and I think similar to many organizations and work force, we encounter a lot of resistance when people are just tired or juggling and this was seen as another additional thing. So we changed communication around social learning being separate, to social learning help you stay flexible, connected, as well as showing appreciation and empathy with each other. I think that really helped and over time, I think we also widened a definition of social learning, right? Social learning not only to do the work better, but also to maintain your well-being, also to build healthier relationships [and] to manage your stress. So I think all of these are good and other forms [of social learning] should be encouraged.
Nicole:
Yeah, I mean I’m just going to jump in because I couldn’t agree more. I think particularly what Kacie and Linda have both mentioned is the impact on well-being and mental health [that] has been so critical. I think of first-year college research, right, [which] tells us that the students that are most likely to persist are the ones who feel connected to their institution. Whether it’s a faculty member or fellow students or whatever it might be, I think this remote [work] environment is considered a new environment for almost all of us. There were some lucky few who were fully remote before this, but this is certainly at just a baseline, COVID-19 is just a baseline level of stress for the whole world. I think acknowledging that and really increasing a focus, through these social channels on well-being, has been really critical. When we all first went remote, we set up virtual meetings simply to connect. That was the only agenda. We would do one called the “fun chat” and there would be a topic each day [to discuss], like what was your favorite grade and why? Or what was your least favorite grade and why? I think that it helped maintain social connection[s] that are part of the informal collaboration that you get in the office. Another example, like just the other night, we had a big department meeting and just in the last 10 minutes of the meeting, leading up to five o’clock naturally, is when everybody’s brainstorm ideas just started coming, flowing out. So I said, “Let’s just stay on the call. If anybody wants to stay on the call, there’s no obligation, but I’m going to be here just taking some notes and if you want to just keep talking and keep flushing out some of these ideas, then let’s do it.” So I think when you’re virtual, just creating that opportunity [for collaboration] is the most critical component and to both Kacie and Linda’s points, the culture has to be there for that [to happen]. If you’re in a culture that’s like, “No, no, no. There will be no meetings without a purpose,” then that’s problematic and that is when you have to go back up to your senior leaders and be like, “No, this is really critical for the well-being of our employees and if we want productivity up, if we want increased adoption of what people are learning so that we can then receive fewer learning requests, [this is necessary],” right, which [if reduced learning requests] is one of our desired outcomes of social learning, then senior leadership has got to be on board and set the tone, absolutely.
Taryn:
These are some great points. I love the idea that you’ve all pointed to, that learning, in the context of social learning, can really help not just help people do their jobs but really help them connect in a time [in which] we’re all struggling to do that. That’s a really great point. Kind of related to that, we’ve mentioned the magic word “engagement.” So what do you see as the role of social learning in boosting employee engagement, whether it’s in a remote workplace or not? Linda, do you want to get us started?
Linda:
So the question is around, can social learning connect and engage employees? Yeah, I think so much of what we have already talked about is a good illustration of leveraging social learning not only for the purpose of learning but [to] really to engage and to affect on the healthier, more inclusive culture. So I personally observed the benefits on different demographics of employees and the leaders, right? We know the pandemic, for example, has been really tough on early-career colleagues, who live either by themselves or the more shared environment. So they typically rely a lot on the social environment at work and it’s very easy to have a sense of isolation, in the past over a year, and I think an emphasis on collaborative learning, in the different way provided that outlet for them to keep the social aspect of work going. Then, a lot of employees [who are] high-achievers in a professional industry [gain a culture of] continuous improvement [where] they are learning from their peers and are getting better [at their jobs], even in times of difficulty … [which] is also very important. I would also share that even in our DEI work, when we are looking at bringing different perspectives together, when we frame things in a more learning setting, learning different perspectives, being open-minded, being humble, people are more willing to listen, and they get less defensive about what others are sharing. Then, we accomplish the goal better. So these are just some of my observations [on] how social learning is being utilized [to] engage and connect [employees].
Nicole:
I mean, I completely agree. I think what Linda said about inclusivity is really nailing one of the biggest benefits of social learning. I think there’s [a] feeling [that] you know who to go to for what because of these different connections you’ve made through social learning, it’s a way of feeling included and [that, in turn] increases your confidence. That is the connection. That is the engagement. If you feel confident in your ability to do your job, or if you have the ability to feel confident admitting that you made a mistake, [that builds confidence], right? So if you’re doing some peer-to-peer training and the peer who is doing the training says, “Look, when I first started this, I used to make this mistake. I used to make that mistake.” That suddenly opens up, just by being a little bit vulnerable, the culture of that meeting, the culture of the team, whatever it is, to be like, “Look, I made a mistake and I want to get better from it,” as opposed to [disciplining mistakes]. It just increases psychological safety. That’s what I’m trying to say, overall. Whereas, when you have less of that, or it’s more formal and not as blended, [like] we were talking about it earlier, I think it does tend to be like, “Oh, mistakes are not quite as okay.” Or it’s like, “No, you just really need to get it. You need to pass that test and that’s the end.” So I think the inclusivity piece and the confidence, I mean, if you have employees that are engaged and confident, you can’t lose.
Taryn:
Well said. Kacie, what are your thoughts?
Kacie:
Yeah, and I would say [that] there’s certainly a direct tie, in my opinion. I mean [as] people, we all crave a sense of belonging and connection, as I mentioned, just even on a very, very holistic level, as human beings. So this is one way to help people not only learn but stay connected. I would say, interestingly, throughout the last year, I think our connections have almost been more [strong] than they were in person because they’re more intentional. So I know Linda and Nicole talked about diversity, equity and inclusion, and we are also very focused on that. We’ve had some great mentoring circles and group learning discussions around that topic and have really connected people that would never have been connected before. So we’ve been able to share different perspectives, [and] everybody has just gotten so much value out of those conversations. I also agree that [for] those [who are] new to the workforce and early in their careers, this is a very different time. I get so many of these folks saying, “Well, how am I going to be visible? How am I going to drive my career from my living room couch? I mean I don’t know where to take my career, or how to learn.” [They] can certainly attend live, virtual training, but this is where social learning and peer-to-peer learning has really helped that group? But because they have been able to stay connected and we have peer coaches, mentors and career coaches who can all be at the ready again, if the culture supports that and there’s time and space to do that, we’ve really seen an increase in engagement in that population, as well. Because it is difficult to figure out your career, again, from your kitchen room table, versus maybe being in an office and just running into people in the hallways. But I actually think this time, while it’s been very challenging for engagement, I think we’ve spent a lot of time on it and that’s very intentional to connect people in a social and collaborative way, and it’s had a lot of positive impacts, as much as we can anyway, during this environment.
Nicole:
Kacie, you couldn’t see me, but I was applauding you, when you [just said that].
Kacie:
Oh okay. Well great. I’ll take it.
Nicole:
That [is so true], about being intentional. That is, I mean there is so much to that, and when we eventually do start heading back to offices, for those companies that are going to do that, I think that’s something that I would love to see continue, like don’t just rely on running into someone in the hallway [in order to connect with them], like you said. But if you can be intentional about it, there’s so much good that comes out of that.
Kacie:
Agreed. I hope that’s something we all carry forward, is that intentionality of what we’ve been doing. I couldn’t agree more, Nicole, and it’s one of my missions, to make sure that that doesn’t stop.
Linda:
I would just say that the intentionality will also bring more equity in a more hybrid work arrangement, right? There will be people who are not all the time in [the] office, [so] how do we intentionally bring them into learning, building [a] productive environment?
Sarah:
Great, those are some great tips from all of you and definitely couldn’t be more obvious that technology plays a role in connecting all of us, right, whether we’re overseas, or working just across the street from someone, in a different location. So do you have any tips on how we can leverage technology to connect and engage our learners in social learning?
Nicole:
I can start because my answer is very simple. I would be much more interested in hearing what Linda and Kacie have to say. But I think for us it’s been [about] how are you using the technology? So most larger companies are utilizing some form of video meetings, right? But is everybody off camera? How engaged are people, really? So we have … what’s worked for our team and certainly, there are exceptions to this, but we have a camera-on type of culture. If you don’t want it on, if you’re eating during a meeting [or something], that’s totally fine if you don’t want people to watch you eat, then by all means, that’s fine. But we really [encourage people to turn their cameras on]. I think that’s part of how, to Kacie’s point, we have continued to feel actually even more connected [while working remotely]. My team is geographically dispersed, and we used to do things just over the phone [but] now we do them on video. I think it can really enhance the connection and I think conversely, if you’re not using or leveraging your technology appropriately, it can really serve to disconnect people. So I mean I think being on video has been probably the biggest thing for us, in utilizing like all the chat functions that come along with that and allowing for a little bit of silliness, like throwing an emoji in during a meeting chat, or things like that, just really trying to keep it as friendly as it might be [if it] were in person.
Sarah:
Definitely. Linda, Kacie, did you have anything else to add?
Kacie:
Yeah, I mean clearly, technology is critical to scaling this type of social learning. Again, whether it’s one-to-one, one person with one person, or a group of people in a cohort experience. Either way [it’s important], if you’re working for a global organization especially. But even [in] a national one, where you’re in different locations, without technology, we’re certainly hamstrung. I mean, you certainly can have a conversation over the phone. In fact, I caught myself this year saying, “Remember the phone?” We can actually talk to one another over the phone, let’s not forget that, or text each other. But I do think there are so many great platforms out there now in the HR space [and] the learning space, and even if you don’t have a fancy learning experience platform, or something like that, you can use Microsoft Teams or Yammer or SharePoint even, as a way to connect people to people and share in a synchronous or asynchronous fashion. Something that we’ve used from a peer coaching perspective — and I don’t mean to plug a certain tool here because there are a couple that do this — but we’ve used a tool called Rehearsal, which I just absolutely love, because what it does is, you can record yourself, [and] I know Linda talked about client service, so [if] either you’re in a client service situation and you’re trying to overcome objections or answer difficult questions from customers, or you’re a manager and you’re practicing delivering difficult feedback, you can record yourself and your peer then watches that video back and can give you constructive criticism. It’s just a nice way to use technology, to really get individualized and I would say [build] social-type learning. I mean, it might be a little bit more on the formal side, but if we think about extending it outside the classroom, it’s really a nice way to get some feedback in a peer-to-peer situation. It’s something that we’ve used in the past and we want to ramp up and use that again in the future. Just a couple of thoughts there.
Linda:
Yeah, I’ll just add that we had a similar tool to what Kacie was describing. I think it’s called Practice. But a very similar tool [to the] Rehearsal tool. We also tried a career pathing, peer mentoring tool. It’s a third-party platform called …. What it does is, allowing people from a crowdsourcing perspective, inputting their aspiration skills and finding someone with similar background, or with a role that they aspire to go to and have a mentoring conversation. So more organic kind of peer mentoring. But I also want to say [that] I think it’s a myth to say you need [a] huge investment to implement new technologies, because a lot of other things we did were very incremental. Really being intentional, again using this word, where we want to have a digital or technology-enabled experience, [is key]. So one example would be, we would still have in-person cohort-based, high potential leadership training, but we would have an app and ahead of time everyone’s file and habits and interests [are housed] for them to reach out [to others] and make connections [to build upon] during the time they are together. So I think these are the things [that can facilitate social learning]. Or, every company has company directory, [but] how do you use that to facilitate connections? So, I think there are a lot of ideas that are much lower-hanging fruit, that could be considered.
Kacie:
Oh and Linda, I like that part a lot. I agree. There are a lot of really fancy platforms out there, that look really slick, but honestly, leveraging what you already have and how it’s to make connections, is a good way to start. I agree. I don’t think we need multi-million dollar investments in technology to connect people. So I think that’s a really good point.
Linda:
Yeah, and an app costs probably what, ten grand to build now?
Kacie:
Yes, mm-hmm.
Linda:
It’s really quite inexpensive.
Nicole:
That’s such an interesting approach to, almost like the pre-work of a leadership development, like more formalized. I love that. I love that. Now you’ve got my wheels turning big time on that one.
Taryn:
All right, so that kind of brings me into my next question which is that social learning obviously tends to be more informal than traditional training programs. So is there a way to measure a return on investment and what tips do you have for doing that? Nicole, do you want to start?
Nicole:
I was hoping not to.
Taryn:
Whoops, sorry.
Nicole:
No, it’s okay. I mean, in full transparency, I don’t know that we’ve really nailed this yet at JetBlue and I think informally, do we see behavior changing? There are anecdotal ways to do it. Are we seeing that someone who has gone through the blended learning approach for a leadership development training [is] being successful? What are their performance evaluations look[ing] like? What types of requests for training are we getting? If social learning and peer-to-peer learning is working really well, are we seeing a reduction in the type of requests that we see? On my team personally, we started a peer-mentoring program for participants in our program. We’re measuring that based on who’s successfully getting through their first course in our program. Like, is that first course completion associated with increased attainment later on down the line? So for the group that had mentors, did we see increased outcomes for that group? We did, which is great. But I think it depends on the size of the program. I think [in] something that’s a bit more formal, a larger, more visible project, like a high-potential leadership development [program], there’s going to be a lot of eyes on something like that. So your measurements might be different than something for a single program, like I just talked about, which is, “Let’s just try it out and see what the difference is.” So I think we’re [measuring] a lot of anecdotal [results] right now and of course, like what Kacie was talking about earlier, measuring engagement, we do a ton of surveys throughout the year as well. We allow one focus every six months to be added to the larger survey that goes out company-wide. So if we wanted to measure something around learning and support and those types of functions, it could be added in, but we wouldn’t be able to compare it for probably another year. So I think there’s actually a lot of room for growth on that.
Kacie:
Yeah, I would say, Nicole, you’ve answered that really well and I think [that measuring] ROI is always tricky. I’m like, “Oh [no], ROI.” I sometimes don’t actually get asked for that, but leaders want to know some kind of impact measure. I would just say, and this is really relevant to anything you’re doing whether it’s social learning or something else is, [that] you’ve got to measure what matters. So it’s got to be tied to your “why,” like why are we doing social learning? Is it to improve engagement and retention? Okay, if it is, then absolutely let’s try to measure that. Now it’s hard to isolate something as a variable, as we know, because there’s so many other things that go into play with somebody’s desire to stay [in a role] or desire to go, or happiness or disengagement. But I also think, yeah, if you’re using social learning and management development, or high-potential development, then you might want to measure performance, or promotability or internal mobility. So I just always think it should be tied to the “why.” Why are you doing this? And there are many, many, many use cases and contexts as to why you might use social learning. One of them could be, Nicole, I know you alluded to this, [but] just to make the learning more sticky. To have people really be able to walk away and have the skills reinforced and therefore, their performance improves or their behavior changes and that’s certainly something you can measure as well. But I mean that’s kind of my top line is, there are many reasons to use social learning and so I would always want to measure back to, what is it we were trying to achieve in the first place, which could be pretty broad, honestly. That’s how I typically measure success anyway, based upon what objectives we were trying to meet at the front end.
Linda:
Yeah, I think that’s really well said, the “why” behind [the] “what.” I’ll just also say that, in my view, the why would be the well-being, the send of belonging and the connectivity of the workforce. At least that’s how I would like to build a business case and continue to push for endorsement and sponsorship around this. I also think that there are many ways we can, on a more ongoing basis, keep the pulse on how the organization and [its] employees are feeling so that hopefully, we’ll provide more data to the benefit of social learning, not maybe [as] precise as in dollar to dollar kind of input/output, [but in a] more industrialist kind of fashion. But I think that is a way to change leadership’s perception on learning as well, right? Do you think it’s still an expense, a cost, [or that] it’s an investment?
Sarah:
Great. Well to wrap things up today, how do each of you see social learning evolving in the future of work and what trends should we and our listeners be looking out for?
Linda:
I firmly believe this will be increasing more and more and will become a norm, [just] as social media has already become in our personal lives. I think in the digital age where AI robotics are replacing a lot of the mundane, data-driven kind of jobs, the critical skills we’re looking at, are those best learned in a social learning environment. Things like social skills, things like using human judgment, things that are situational based. So yeah, I totally think that as a learning function we have a huge role to play in educating our leaders and organizations. Being prepared for different ways to pilot, to test, to experiment and just create that environment when people turn to us and say, “Hey, I would like to do this.” We will be like, “Yep, we’ve got that.” I would love my team to be able to do that.
Taryn:
Nicole, Kacie, did you want to add anything on?
Nicole:
Sure. So the way that I think about it, [what] really screams is talent management. I think to Kacie’s point about intentionality and Linda’s point about connectedness and well-being, in these future hybrid work environments that I think the majority of us are probably going to end up in, [social learning] is going to become more and more critical, but I can see it from a talent management, performance management perspective, asking someone to be that peer-to-peer trainer, or that mentor, is a development opportunity. So much comes out of explaining something to someone else. It really helps you deepen your own knowledge if you can explain [something] to someone else. I mean, I think that’s the purpose of the buddy system, or the peer mentor, or whatever you want to set it up as, whatever the need is, to Kacie’s point, what is the “why?” I think that the focus shouldn’t just be on the learner in that situation. Of course we want that learner to learn what they need to learn and be able to reply and all of that. But I think focusing on it as a development opportunity and a way to kind of deepen expertise and then also potentially, maybe that helps you move around within the company, [is important] as well. I think that could be huge. I would love to see that as part of individualized development plans, supporting other learners.
Kacie:
Yeah, I think Nicole, that’s a really good point and something that we haven’t done but are looking at, because I agree. When we talk about, let’s just say mentoring as a social learning tactic, if you will. I mean, the mentor gets as much out of it as the mentee. Sometimes, when we talk about being a senior leader, we think being a mentor or “teaching back,” giving back to the organization is part of being a senior leader in an organization. I agree that that’s becoming more important and to Linda’s point, [social] learning as a skill, or learning agility as a skill, has become hyper important. So it’s almost as important to know your deep technical skills, as it is to be agile, always learning, problem-solving, critical thinking. I mean all the things that we tend to be focusing on at the moment. So learning as a skill, is becoming more and more important, because we have to adapt so much. I do think social learning will continue to tip the scales. I know we talk about 70-20-10 and it’s interesting. I have to admit, I’ve never gotten to 70-20-10. I wish I have. But that 10% still kind of dominates some of the learning strategy that we offer. There’s a lot of formal learning happening, but I think the reason people love right now, live, virtual learning, is because of the connections that they can make with other human beings. So they’re not sitting in front of their computer taking self-paced learning. It is an opportunity to learn and connect. So, we know that this is what people crave. We just need to enable and architect [learning] experiences for more people to connect with [others]. I do think that’s going to be the way [we’ll see social learning evolve] going forward. I think if you’re moving toward a more teams-based kind of culture, certainly this is going to matter even more as we look at gig work and internal opportunities, where people can stretch themselves on the job and learn from others and then teach others behind them. I really do think this is going to start to take over and for those of us who still aren’t only doing 10%, but that 10% is a little bit more toward 50-plus percent, I think you’re going to see the needle move on that more and more, just out of necessity. But again, I think it’s becoming pretty engrained in cultures that this is what we need to do to survey.
Nicole:
Kacie, I couldn’t agree more, and I think your point about having that formal learning take up a bit more air than we ideally want it to, I think that’s something that we can be on the lookout for as well, is the impact of social learning on that more formalized training. Like I think we’re going to see that blend more and more, because the whole sit in this classroom, while the facilitator tells you what you need to know, it’s not very effective. I think we’ve got about a 15-minute attention span on something like that, whereas more interactive and breakout sessions and things like that, that can be built into those formalized classroom sessions like that, is social learning coming into the formalized classroom setting and I think you’re right. I think it needs to inform a lot of that, that 10% that’s really 50%.
Kacie:
Mm-hmm.
Sarah:
Perfect. Well I’m excited to see how social learning evolves alongside the way that we work in the future. So that wraps up this episode of the Business of Learning. Nicole, Linda, Kacie, thank you so much for sharing your insights with us.
Linda:
It was a lot of fun. Thank you.
Nicole:
Yeah, thank you for having us.
Kacie:
This has been great, thank you.
Nicole:
Thank you so much. This was great.
Sarah:
Perfect and would you mind sharing where our listeners can find you online, if they want to connect with you? Nicole, do you want to go first?
Nicole:
Sure, I’m just on LinkedIn. My name’s Nicole Lembo. I’d love to chat.
Taryn:
Perfect.
Nicole:
Would love to chat.
Linda:
Yeah, same here and I have a middle name, Jingfang. But you should be able to find me.
Kacie:
Yeah, I’m also on LinkedIn. Kacie Walters, like Barbara Walters, is what I always say. So you can find me there, but I also publish a blog weekly, at kaciewalters.substack.com, on Sundays. But you can find that on LinkedIn as well if you’d like to follow me there.
