Recent advancements in artificial intelligence (AI) and other technologies have made the need for digital skills training a top business imperative. Without digital skills, employees will be ill-equipped to do their jobs in today’s world of work — and in tomorrow’s.
In this episode of The Business of Learning, we spoke with Shauna Begley, founder of ModernWork and current program head of the business information technology management program at the Business Columbia Institute of Technology, and George Hanshaw, director of digital learning solutions at Los Angeles Pacific University, to learn more about building a digitally fluent workforce.
Listen now for insights on:
- The difference between digital fluency and digital literacy.
- Why “technical know-how” is just the beginning of cultivating digital fluency.
- How to assess your organization’s current level of digital fluency.
Listen Now:
Additional Resources:
- E-Book — The AI Advantage in L&D: A Strategic Guide
- Course: Learning Analytics Workshop
- Article: 7 Tips for Training Employees on Cybersecurity
The transcript for this episode follows:
Speaker 1:
Welcome to the Business of Learning, the learning leader’s podcast from Training Industry.
Sarah Gallo”
Hi, welcome back to The Business of Learning. I’m Sarah Gallo, senior editor at Training Industry, here with my co-host, Michelle Eggleston Schwartz, editor-in-chief.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Welcome. Before we begin, here’s a brief message from our sponsor.
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Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
In today’s digital first business environment, all employees need digital skills to support key business goals and objectives. In fact, the need for digital skills was a key trend identified in training industry’s 2023 trends report, and it’s one we don’t expect to go away anytime soon. Between advancements in artificial intelligence and the continued adoption of remote and hybrid work and learning models, businesses need a digitally fluent workforce to thrive in today’s market and in tomorrow’s to learn more about how to build a digitally fluent workforce, we’re speaking with Shauna Begley, founder of Modern Work and current program head of the Business Information Technology Management program at the Business Columbia Institute of Technology, and George Hanshaw, director of digital learning solutions at Los Angeles Pacific University. Shauna and George, welcome to the podcast.
Shauna Begley:
Thanks so much for having me.
George Hanshaw:
Yeah, thanks Michelle. Thanks, Sarah.
Sarah Gallo:
Yes, welcome. We’re excited to have this conversation with both of you because it’s really such a timely topic, not only in L and d, but really across all industries. So I think to get started, I’d love if you could both share your own definitions for digital literacy, which sometimes we hear as digital fluency as well.
Shauna Begley:
Great. Well, whether we call it digital literacy, fluency, fitness or something else, there’s no doubt that knowledge workers today need to be increasingly proficient in using technology to get work done. But technical know-how is really just the start. Because we’re faced with new technologies and the technologies we adopt are continually changing, it’s important that we have a learning mindset. And so with that in mind, I would say that my definition would go beyond the technical know-how to, having the confidence and curiosity and commitment to using technology to fully participate in an increasingly digitized world.
George Hanshaw:
I love that definition, and mine kind of piggybacks right along with that. I actually separate literacy and fluency the same way you did Sean on how you looked at your definition. But literacy, I kind of think I’m able to use this technology kind of like somebody who can use Excel, maybe they can do some quick math in there, get an average or something like that, but somebody who’s fluent can go in and do data visualization and analyze data, things like that. So that’s kind of where I draw the difference between the two. Digital literacy is really being able to use it, but I totally agree with your thoughts when it comes to fluency. You have to be able to adapt and have that learning mindset that’s set in because things change so quickly that if you’re not able to adapt, you’re not fluent.
Shauna Begley:
Yeah, and I think that one interesting thing that you said there, George, is that it’s one thing to know how to do the Excel formula. It’s another thing to understand when actually you need to use that formula in order to make your work better or achieve the outcomes that you want to achieve.
George Hanshaw:
And that really speaks to the value that you add to the org organization. If you’re fluent, that a whole lot more value because you make all these mental connections and you’re an expert.
Shauna Begley:
Yeah, well put.
Sarah Gallo:
Perfect. Thanks for helping us make that distinction between really the know-how and becoming more fluent, which we know is what we all need, especially in today’s business environment. For sure. Now that we’re all on the same page, I’d like to dig a little bit more into how here Shauna and George, how can businesses actually determine the current state of digital fluency in their organizations?
George Hanshaw:
That’s an interesting question. From my perspective, the first thing that we have to do is define what that is for your organization, because I don’t think it’s a blanket response for, there’s obviously some things that are generalized across any industry, but I think for your business, for your org, you have to define what digital literacy digital fluency is and then start then determine what works best for you. I’m not a big fan of self-report surveys, even though they are helpful, but I found when it comes in terms of digital literacy, just like online classrooms a lot, the responses are what people think they want you to say as opposed to what they actually do. So they’re valuable, but I’ve always seen a little bit of a mix up. So little tests, assessments via whatever channels you use, whether it’s Slack, Teams, email, whatever you may use, doing little things in there to actually see how people react when our IT folks send out those phishing emails, see who’s going to open it. Getting data like that is hugely important to either align with those self-reports or to say, no, we’re not true to ourselves. Kind of seeing where we’re at.
Shauna Begley:
Yeah, I think that’s a great point you make about what is important in organizations is really going to depend on the type of work that you’re doing and the type of digital tools that you’re using. So there’s no doubt that assessing the digital literacy of your organization is crucial, and understanding your digital literacy is really the first step to improving it. And so like George said, I think there’s limited usefulness in conducting employee surveys and questionnaires to gauge how people are feeling comfort and proficient with their digital tools. Observations and feedback from managers can also I think, be valuable. But because digital literacy is more than digital skills, you may be able to actually assess how your teams are doing by the quality and the quantity of the work that’s being output. So my point would be high functioning teams are probably more likely to use technology in purposeful ways to support how they work. They’re more likely to continue to adapt to changing technologies to make their work better, faster, easier, or just more fun.
George Hanshaw:
I like this theme of adapting that we’re getting on because it’s so important. I love the way you brought that up.
Sarah Gallo:
I want to jump in really quick. Shauna, you mentioned something that really stood out to me about digital literacy being more than digital skills. Can you expand on that a bit? What do you mean by that?
Shauna Begley:
Yeah, so I think that in some of the courses that I teach in the curriculum that we develop, we obviously think about we’ll use Excel because it’s come up before Microsoft Excel is that we’ll often see whether we look at job postings on external websites or we evaluate what our industry partners are saying that they need. And Excel skills always come up, but depending on the type of work you do in your organization, how much data, the type of data is that the specific Excel skills that you need and how you’re going to employ them in your work will differ. And so there needs to be that element of critical thought understanding first, what is it? Within Microsoft Excel, there is so much functionality and as users we probably only use about 20% of that’s probably generous of the platform, but we use it really, really well. And so someone who is digitally literate, who has the skills and knowledge will use that 20%. Someone who is digitally fluent will be looking to into the program to say, what are the other things that Excel can do that is going to help me do the work that I need to do?
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
That’s awesome. Thank you for digging into that a little more, Shauna, that’s very helpful. As we’ve already touched on here, the term digital skills is very broad. So interested to hear what specific digital skills do you think that today’s employees need to be successful?
George Hanshaw:
If I may, I think the digital skills and behavior kind of go hand in hand because my biggest digital skill that I would say they need to have is understanding of cybersecurity. And a lot of cybersecurity threats happen because of behavior, not necessarily nefarious behavior on the part of the person that’s conducting the behavior. Like opening up the phishing email. I actually worked and my employer shut down the entire access to the internet from any of our computers because an individual found AUSB and in the parking lot went in, plugged it in to see who it belonged to because he wanted to be that great person to give them back their data. And it was some sort of a virus to let folks outside get our classified data inside. So the behaviors that go along that are the skills that I would really want to make sure they have, along with being able to use stuff, but just being able to have that set of behaviors in a way where they’re not creating issues with their organizations because there’s all kinds of data that organizations don’t want to share, and corporate espionage is real, so we don’t want to get that data out, and it’s generally behaviors that make that happen. So cybersecurity skills, knowing what to do and how to act would be my number one.
Shauna Begley:
Yeah, I think that that’s a really great point, George. We spend a lot of our time connected, and while it can be overwhelming to think of all the digital skills that we could learn, there’s certain skills that I would suggest we need to thrive. So if we think about how we use technology, and I like to group it into kind of the three Cs, which is that we communicate, we collaborate, and we consume, and this can help us figure out what kind of skills to prioritize. And so I’m just going to jump to the consume because George alluded to this is that when we consume information, we need to be aware of how our actions benefit or put at risk our organizations. And so this speaks to cybersecurity, it speaks to finding and assessing information online. Is it trustworthy? Is it correct? And also using search and iterative tools like ChatGPT to find and use information beyond that, communicating effectively means we need to master technologies like Slack, Teams, email and Zoom. And sure, it’s easy enough to use those technologies, but how do you run a meeting efficiently? So again, back to the behavior about how do we leverage these technologies and then collaborating, we need to master our online productivity suites like Microsoft365 [or] Google Workspace. I’ll add to this, is that communicating insight from data is becoming increasingly important. So data literacy is, I would think something that we should all be building data literacy. I agree with you on that because we’ve never had the ability to touch so much data that we do today. So that is such a big deal to be able to visualize it or just put it in a way that makes sense to people who aren’t so hyper-focused on whatever that is.
George Hanshaw:
That’s just amazing. I love that. Communicate, collaborate and consume. So that’s the communicate part, right?
Shauna Begley:
Right. And the thing about data is there’s obviously more data available than we’ve ever had before, and the tools are really democratized. So it’s not going to your IT department and saying, create this report for me. You now have individuals in all lines of business who have access to the data, who have access to the tools, and there’s an expectation that they’re going to be able to gain some insight. And I’m not sure that we all have that skill right now.
George Hanshaw:
And if you do have that skill, you look like a genius.
Shauna Begley:
Yes, you do.
George Hanshaw:
You look like, “What is this magic that’s happening right now?”
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
I definitely agree. Being able to communicate what this data means is really so important. So that’s such a great insight there. I’m interested to hear what tips do you have for training employees to be proficient in these skills?
Shauna Begley:
I think you go back to what George said is that to train employees in digital skills effectively, you need to start by identifying what skills each role needs. Then it’s critical to carve out space for employees to say, learn while they earn. And so structured training programs are great, but if we think about digital literacy or fluency as digital fitness, we can see that a different approach is probably required. So as an example, I wouldn’t take a six week learn to run program and consider myself a runner. So to keep our bodies healthy, agile and strong, we need to exercise regularly, eat well, stay active. And the same goes for our digital fitness. So this is where I like to think of microlearning as being really valuable. So there’s tons of bite-sized on demand online resources available, whether formally through LinkedIn Learning or other learning platforms, but YouTube and even TikTok is a gold mine. So another thing is that the platforms that we use are really good at letting us know when there are new features that may benefit how we work. We just need to pay attention. And when those popups come up that say, Hey, here’s something new that might be helpful, we need to not swipe those away. We have to have time built within our day to explore and to think about, well, how is this going to be able to improve? But to do that, it’s really important that organizations embrace a culture that supports and encourages and expects employees to find new ways, big and small, to use technology to support how they do their work.
George Hanshaw:
That’s Peter Drucker, right? Culture eats strategy for breakfast. I love that. And it is funny that you said if you go take one six month running course, I always say if you go to the gym one time, you’re not in shape. You got to keep going. That’s sort of the same approach that I have. I have the same approach as Shauna. I love the microlearning and for us, we use Slack where I am and we throw in little training tidbits. Sometimes they’re tech, sometimes they’re 30-second videos, but we throw in that stuff constantly throughout. And then there are those larger courses that people can take who need to take a deeper dive. But a lot of people are pretty adept. I wouldn’t say we’re never where we need to be. We’re always in pursuit of that. But really, like Shauna said, we need to create that culture of learning and that starts with leadership. So leadership has to role model that because one of my favorite sayings is no bad teams only bad leaders. So you’re going to get exactly what your role model. So if you give that time like Sean was talking about, to not just swipe away that little pop-up, but just to see what it is to take that slight deeper dive and you’ve created that learning culture and anything that you put out people are going to consume and they’re going to take whatever they need from it. Not everybody needs the same thing from all the training.
Shauna Begley:
And I agree with that, George. And I think just to add on is we have this culture of busyness and to be productive, we need to put our heads down and always be working on the task at hand. And to have a culture where we value the fact that I’m going to carve out a little bit of time every day, every week to actually invest in learning something, a new way to do something, I think is a novel approach.
George Hanshaw:
One thing, if I could just expand on that even a little bit more, one thing that I implemented on my team is the 80-20, rule where they purposefully have so many hours a week to just learn, discover something. I went to the point where discover something, I don’t care what it is, just go and learn. Do whatever you want, do whatever’s on your heart, whatever your passion is, and the results from that on the business side of it, were more than if they use that time to do something toward the business. It was incredible what happened. I just saw all the different perspectives that came in and all the different projects that came about from that affected the business in a positive way. Your comment kind of made me think of that, the 80 -0 rule, just say, “Hey, not only you, I expect you to take time to learn.” And then people always will amaze you when you treat them well.
Shauna Begley:
Yeah, we need great leaders like you, George. Good.
George Hanshaw:
Well, I struggle every day, so my team knows that I’m probably the worst leader. That’s why I worked the hardest at it.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
I love that, George. It’s kind of that tapping into employees curiosity and encouraging that because it’s really going to feed into the business and you’re going to see that passion come alive. So I love that.
Sarah Gallo:
Perfect. We’ll be right back after a message from our sponsor.
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Sarah Gallo:
We know that the need for employees with digital skills isn’t new, but why are these skills even more important today? What technological advancements and other factors have led to the increased need for employees with strong digital skills?
Shauna Begley:
So you’re right, digital skills have always been valuable, but the rapid digitization of industries, the need for greater efficiency and innovation and the very changing nature of work means that everyone’s really feeling the pressure. So the pandemic was disruptive for sure, but we’re seeing the need to up our game, and this is really due to the proliferation of the data available, as we talked about before, the democratization of these generative AI tools and an increase in technology driven automation. So what we’re seeing is that organizations that prioritize leveraging technology, and I would say this is true, both pre-pandemic, during the pandemic and beyond, not only leveraging technology, but digital skill building. That’s what really better positions organizations to thrive in today’s digital-first world.
George Hanshaw:
Yeah, I’d just like to echo those sentiments because we’ve never had this much access to data, and with all this access to data, it can be overwhelming and we have to be able to use our digital tools to just simply not get ran over. And especially as Shauna said a few times, the democratization of the AI tools. Just recently, AI has been around for a long time, but it’s been around for the computer engineers and the coders, the software engineers and all the backend folks that do the amazing stuff. But now it’s there for anybody and it’s free. A lot of it is free, not all of it, but a lot of it is free. So we really have to up our game as far as what we’re doing. Otherwise we’re just going to get overwhelmed with information because data doesn’t really help us. It’s how we categorize it, how we show it, and the story that we get that data to tell is what really helps us out. And that’s a skill. And it is hard sometimes too, especially if we’ve been doing something a certain way and now we have to adapt to all this other data that’s coming in. Just like I was reading a thing about university students and I was going through all the demographic data and all this good stuff, but because I’m kind of attuned to data now more than I ever have been because I have to be right, I was like, man, they missed one thing. They never asked why students go to college. They never asked the big question. So I have all this data, but there’s nothing that I can connect it to that really matters. Why are they coming in? Maybe, why aren’t they coming in? Different things like that. So all the availability of data is huge.
Shauna Begley:
I love what you said there, George, and I think that that’s when we talk about digital skills versus the fluency about how we use technology with respect to data, just it comes down to anybody can generate a report. Anybody can create a dashboard. But are we going back and saying, what is the business problem or opportunity? What is the question we’re trying to answer and what are we willing and able to do differently because we now have the answer to that question? And so that’s the difference between someone who has the skill to build a dashboard or a report and someone who is actually leveraging technology and information in a way that is going to positively impact the organization.
George Hanshaw:
Yeah. So how are you using the tools that you have? Are you that master technician or are you an apprentice? Are you Yoda or are you Luke? In the very beginning,
Sarah Gallo:
Well, we’ve mentioned it multiple times now, this democratization of AI and generative AI tools is really taking every industry by storm. What tips do you have for organizations that are looking to make sure their people are prepared to thrive in this new business environment?
George Hanshaw:
One that the drum that I kind of beat all the time, if you will, since the pace of change is moving so quickly in organizations, they’ll hear things like, oh, we’re using the Kotter Change Model. No, that’s out the window. You have to really be able to see all that’s coming and make iterative decisions. So your mission, vision and values, you’re still shooting for those and you’re getting there. So you have to make much smaller iterative decisions to keep your plane flying towards your destination, flying toward your mission, vision and values. If you’re, you’re trying to connect your old school change models, your old school, whatever it is with today, you’re going to end up in Australia rather than Tokyo or something like that, you’re, you’re going to end up at the wrong location because you’re simply not able to adapt because these old tools, Kotter’s Change Model, things like that, they don’t adapt to the quick pace that we have now. At least that’s my opinion, usually unpopular opinion, but it’s an opinion.
Shauna Begley:
I think that we are in an iterative and agile, that’s the environment that we live in. And so one thing I did want to make notice that it’s, we recognize that today’s ai, the ones that knowledge workers have access to, isn’t really intelligent. And that’s important because humans are, or at least we have the capacity to be so. And so the difference between this technology that we’re using and as humans is that we have the capacity to think critically about information and make decisions about what actions we’re going to take. And so just feeding off of what George said is what are those actions that are going to drive us towards our vision in our organization? So when we think about AI and how organizations are using it, I heard someone say once that AI won’t replace your job, but someone using AI will, and I loved that. I think organizations need to encourage and support the ethical and appropriate use of AI in their business. And then back to what we’ve been talking about before is that data is a big deal in ai. So no matter what industry or discipline that you work in, I would suggest that every knowledge worker today needs to be data savvy. Not only do you need to be able to shape and format data to communicate insight as we’ve talked about, but you should be concerned about data governance to ensure that you’re responsibly and ethically using data, whether it’s in a traditional sense or with these AI-powered systems.
George Hanshaw:
I totally agree with that. I completely agree with that because a lot of people, they use AI, but they don’t know the difference between generative AI, machine learning, large language models, how it all fits together, [or] anything else. So the first thing that we really need to do is get savvy with that on basic understanding of what they are. I mean, my son actually is getting ready to go to uc, San Diego where degree, and if I get this wrong, I’m sorry, but it is a degree in cognitive science with a minor in machine learning. So there’s already programs out there that are trying to make this stuff smart because like as Shauna said, it’s not truly smart yet. We’re getting there and with all the effort that’s going towards it, we’ll get there. But we need to know the differences between all this stuff and what it is.
Shauna Begley:
That sounds like a fantastic program. I would say that with all of the benefits that technology and machine learning and AI provide to us, that healthy sense of not only curiosity, but skepticism is really important. And I remember when ChatGPT came out and I was teaching in the classroom, and I did an experiment with my students and I brought ChatGPT up on the screen and I said, okay, well this is great. It’s a fantastic tool. You’re going to be able to use this to provide outlines, synthesize information, but let’s just test something. And so now this has been fixed since, but in the early iteration, I typed into ChatGPT,” “what is nine plus one?” And ChatGPT said 10. And I said, “Actually, you’re wrong. It’s 11.” And it said, “Oh, sorry, I made a mistake. You’re right, it’s 11.” And so we can consume information out of these systems, but we have to have that sober second thought and that critical thought and say, is this true? Is it valid? Is it helpful? Does it help my business?
George Hanshaw:
Right. And that’s interesting because one of the things that I work with, some people are for using ChatGPT for at this time to write relevant communications for, because we’re a global community now. So there’s parts of your organization in different areas of the world. So write culturally relevant communication stating whatever it is for this country in this business. And you have to be able to look at that and say, is this real or am I going to come across completely wrong? And you don’t have the opportunity say, well, that was ChatGPT that did it. And he’s going, no, it’s on you, but you did it. Did I totally just offend everybody at that company or did I come across, well, I’m understanding. So it’s hugely important for things like that.
Shauna Begley:
That’s great. It’s a good starting point, but not the [be-all-end-all].
George Hanshaw:
Right. Will you allow ChatGPT to define your career?
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
Love it. Those are all such good points. Kind of shifting gears and looking towards the future, as we all know, technology is only going to continue to evolve and change the way we work. So how can organizations really ensure their employees have the skills they need to be successful moving forward? So in other words, how can companies keep pace with change?
Shauna Begley:
So the modern world of work is a bit of a rollercoaster, and some of us get a thrill from that ride while others are holding on for dear life, eyes shut, squeeze, shut, and we can’t wait for it to be over. And unlike a rollercoaster, this ride doesn’t end. And that can be overwhelming sometimes. So it’s important to acknowledge that we all have a different threshold or a different experience with change, and it’s important to acknowledge that we’re all on this ride together. And so we’ve spoken about this before, how as supportive culture and appropriate change management frameworks, whatever that’s going to be, whatever’s appropriate for your organization. But one thing I found really useful is providing opportunities for team members to share their challenges and wins. And this can be as simple as setting up a lunch and learn where everyone gets to share their favorite hack or the one thing that they’re struggling to figure out or the one thing that is taking them too much time or they feel like there must be a better way to do it. And not only does this promote skill development, but it also helps us feel like we’re not the only ones struggling.
George Hanshaw:
Absolutely. And I’m one of those people that I’m on that rollercoaster. I’m like, “Yeah, let’s go.” Got the hands up just going down, hoping they’re going to take my picture on the way down, and I don’t look too crazy. So I kind of love this environment. I’m at home, just I’m eating my pizza and we’re going a hundred miles an hour. But one thing I had to learn as a learner is exactly what you said, Shauna. I was wearing some people out. They’re like, “George, you just need to stop.” You’re killing me right now. So we have to acknowledge that we’re all kind of in a different space with that. And then so I had to reflect. I slow down, get the feedback from my team. We still love the change, but now I’m more cognizant. The way I do that is we do a lot of cross-functional training. We do a lot of project learning, so people get a chance to engage at whatever pace they’re at to engage with other people and learn from them, and creating different partnerships and such within our organization where folks can learn from everybody else. So they have a broader perspective, a broader knowledge, like the old saying, Jack of all trades, master of none is better than a master of one. That’s kind of our perspective. So by creating partnerships within there so we can reach out and work with others across functional training. And then project learning is kind of the micro-pieces that I helped initiate to not where everybody I team, because I’m a junkie for the change. So that was kind of where we’re at. So in other words, it all comes down to leadership. So if your team’s getting tired, it’s on you. It has nothing to do with them, it’s you.
Shauna Begley:
I think George, you and I are very much the same. We love the change. We’re like, “Ooh, what’s next?” And I know I’ve had a few people say, “Okay, Shauna, can we just take a break? Can we just have a breath?” And so one thing that you mentioned, George, that I just wanted to play off a bit, is that we have also within our organizations this idea that your ability to adapt to change, and specifically technology changes is based on your generational cohort. And that’s not been the experience. And in fact, one thing, I was reading an article and they were talking about the fact that actually younger individuals are experiencing less disruptive technology change than previous cohorts. So if we think about someone who was born in the year, so my son’s 12 and looks at the iPad, really hasn’t changed in his lifetime, but those of us who are a little older, we went from analog to first generation digital to now smart technology. So our ability to adapt, we might say that our adaptive threshold might be a little higher. And so we need to rethink how we label people as to their ability to adapt to change.
George Hanshaw:
I love that. Rethink because labelings, they generally don’t help do, they generally hurt us more than anything else. And one thing that I like to do is, because I know who I am, I’m, let’s go, we’ll figure this out is in meetings and projects and stuff, I always have somebody play the devil’s advocate role where they’re looking for all the issues in it and then appreciate when they bring in those alternative thoughts and opinions. So not argue with it, just appreciate it and then talk it through. So I love that about the pieces that you brought up there, Shauna. That’s great. And understanding everybody.
Shauna Begley:
Yeah. Good.
Sarah Gallo:
Perfect. Well, George, Shauna, we’ve covered so much. Thank you both so much for speaking with us today. I know I got a lot out of it, and I’m sure our listeners did it well, hopefully got some tips to help them navigate what you all have called the rollercoaster that is the modern workplace. So with that, how can our listeners get in touch with you after the episode if they would like to connect?
Shauna Begley:
You can get in touch with me on LinkedIn, Shauna Begley. You can also check out my website, modernwork.ca.
George Hanshaw
That’s very cool. And for me, you can connect with me on LinkedIn, George Hanshaw. My website is Shaw’s Horizon, and you can always email me at ghanshaw@lap.edu. Always excited to chat.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz:
To learn more about digital skills training, visit the shownotes for this episode@trainingindustry.com slash training industry podcast. And if you enjoyed this episode, let us know. Leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. We love hearing from you.
Sarah Gallo:
Until next time.
Speaker:
If you have feedback about this episode or would like to suggest a topic for a future program, email us at editor@trainingindustry.com or visit the contact us page at trainingindustry.com. Thanks for listening to the Training Industry podcast.
