With job roles ranging from instructional designer to training manager to chief learning officer and more, a career in learning and development (L&D) offers purpose-driven opportunities for growth and advancement. However, most L&D careers are far from linear, and it’s inevitable that you’ll face both highs and lows along the way.
In this episode of The Business of Learning, sponsored by Edstutia, we spoke with two “accidental trainers” — Jen Recla, leadership coach and trainer at Recla Coaching and Consulting, and Annie Lee, Ed.D., senior director of organization and talent development at PepsiCo Beverages North America — to hear about their L&D career journeys and their advice for others in the field.
Tune in for insights on:
- The skills that training professionals need to be successful (and how to develop them).
- How to “be your own advocate” throughout your L&D career.
- The benefits of pursuing a career in L&D.
Listen Now:
Additional Resources:
- Courses: Training Industry Courses
- Article: 8 Tips for Navigating an L&D Job Transition Successfully
- Article: Charting a New Course — Tips for Individuals Entering the L&D Field
Download Training Industry’s L&D Career and Salary Study to learn more about the career needs and salary benchmarks of training professionals across organizations and industries:
The transcript for this episode follows:
[Ad]
The business environment is ever-changing, and Edstutia values the importance of providing learning opportunities that meet the demands of an evolving world. Edstutia knows companies struggle with costly and time-consuming training, all-time-low learner engagement, and challenging virtual and hybrid workforces. This is precisely why Edstutia looked to virtual reality and immersive learning to improve corporate training. Research shows people can learn much faster in VR, are significantly more engaged during the learning process, and retain what they’ve learned because they “learn by doing” — not by memorizing. Edstutia’s virtual campus, its programs, and team use immersive learning and technology to train corporate teams around the world. Visit edstutia.com today and start your own VR journey!
Sarah Gallo: Hi, and welcome back to The Business of Learning. I’m Sarah Gallo, senior editor here at Training Industry.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz: And I’m Michelle Eggleston Schwartz, editor in chief here Training Industry. We’re dedicated to helping learning leaders advance their own professional development so they can better run the business of learning in their organizations. After all, when your job is focused on developing others, it’s easy for your own development to fall behind. We also know that there’s many L&D career paths. And they’re not all linear. So today we’re excited to hear from two L&D professionals about their own career journeys and the advice they have for others in the field. With us, we have Jen Recla, leadership coach and trainer at Recla Coaching and Consulting, and Annie Lee, senior director of organization and talent development at PepsiCo. Beverages, North America. Jen and Annie, welcome to the podcast.
Annie Lee: Thank you so much for having us.
Sarah Gallo: Yes, welcome, both. We’re excited for this conversation with you all today to get started. Can you share a little bit more about your own career paths, and what led you to pursue a career in learning and development.
Jen Recla: I don’t mind kicking us off with this. I think, like many learning and development professionals I run into. This was something I stumbled upon. I actually originally went to university for theater. I lived in L.A. for a period of time and did that whole thing, and then I move back to the East Coast [and] wasn’t sure what I wanted to do, went to work at a hospital in operations and project management, went back to school to get my M.B.A. and that’s where I learned more about the learning and realized I wanted to be the one in front of the classroom. I wanted to be the one coaching people and that led to work in lean process improvement it led to a role in organizational development with another hospital. And I just continued to stay in that space for the next 12 years. Moving to different leadership roles, mainly staying in the healthcare public sector nonprofit space. And since then I’ve decided to go out on my own focusing in on the leadership space, coaching, consulting, and doing some training as well. So that’s been my journey.
Annie Lee: Yeah. And Jen, my story is very similar in terms of stumbling upon that learning and development. So I graduated undergraduate with a marketing degree, started to work my way up in that field, always in the retail industry. Oh, and I always thought HR was hiring, more employee relations. I didn’t realize that learning and development was even a career outlet as part of the HR umbrella. I got to a larger organization that had an L&D department and got invited to be a participant in one of the programs, and it was completely transformative to me. And to think that you could have a career where you’re providing skills and resources for people to actually excel in the workforce versus just kind of the school of hard rocks and figuring it out as you go to me was such a calling. So… this was a career change for me, so I got my masters [degree]. I also got my doctorate in the L&D industry and continued to go into the corporate sector. I worked at Hudson’s Bay Company, SAKS Fifth Avenue, and currently at PepsiCo. I’ve been here for about six years doing talent development.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz: Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing a bit about your own career journeys. What advice would you give to our learner, our listeners who are new to the L&D profession.
Jen Recla: So advice, I’d say the first advice I would give is that you are the number one person responsible for your own career and growth. So really take advantage of stepping into that space and being intentional. There will be other people that will sponsor and advocate for you along the way, but you have to be your first best advocate. And I think in my time, with nonprofit and health care we often don’t have a lot of money. We don’t have a lot of resources, but there are so many free and low-cost resources out there. So do the research take advantage. Sign up for Training Industry. There are different Training Industry magazines that you can get for free. They offer free webinars. Signing up for local chapters of learning, networking professionals. It can be maybe $100 [or] $50 a year, and the amount of people that you meet, the opportunities for networking and webinars [is significant]. Go to the library; get books. It doesn’t cost you anything. Finding a mentor, LinkedIn is a great space to be able to connect with other professionals in the field and learn from them. A lot of the time, if you volunteer at conferences, they’ll give you a couple of free days to be able to participate. Apply to speak at conferences. That’s another opportunity. So I think, really, taking advantage of that [is key]. Learn what energizes you and what drains you, and really step into the things that bring you joy and your strengths, I think creating a strong network of other learning professionals. Some people are a learning professional shop of one. Do you really need to create a vast network of supporters, people that you can learn from and share your learnings along the way. And then, I think, listening. What do your learners want? What do they need? What does the organization want? And how does that all align with each other? So those are some initial advice I give to new L&D professionals.
Annie Lee: Yeah, Jen, that’s great. And I think similar to what Jen and I experienced, you know many folks stumble upon L&D, right? They might be an HR business partner. They might be in change management. A role opens up and learning and development. And they think, okay, I’m intrigued. I’m curious. I strongly advise our listeners, similar to what Jen just said, is there is science behind adult learning, and I find that on my team what sets you apart is that you’re actually understanding the theory behind it. You’re understanding evaluation and how to show impact. You’re you know, you’re not just designing a workshop [in] PowerPoint that looks pretty and is being delivered to an audience. You’re actually taking the time to understand personas. You’re taking the time to understand learning preferences and really just the art of adult learning. And you don’t need a fancy degree to do that. Similar to what Jen said, be curious. Google, there’s a ton of information, free information that talks about adult development and talks about adult psychology which directly impacts the person that that you’re trying to reach. So that’s what I would certainly agree with Jen on … just being curious and really taking it the one step [further] to understand the body of research that describes andragogy, and how remarkably different it is from pedagogy.
Sarah Gallo: Perfect, thanks so much for sharing both of you. I think, especially when kind of stumbling into learning and development like you two did, it can be a little intimidating. There really is a lot to learn. So thanks for breaking that all down for us. And I know we’ve been seeing a focus really on skills development [and] bridging skills gaps across really, all industries, L&D included. So with that, are there any particular skills or competencies that learning leaders really need to be successful in today’s business environment? And do you have any tips on how to actually develop those?
Annie Lee: I can take this one. Jen. I think analytical skills for me. I think, the world is evolving so rapidly. And we’re having so much data. And that’s only going to continue to grow at our fingertips. How are you able to look across multiple different outlets and synthesize large bodies of information to understand root cause. And I think that’s honestly how you get a seat at the table when you’re pushing your programs. It’s one thing coming in saying, this is a nice to have anecdotally my gut or my interviews, or needs assessment at the surface area level say that X is the problem. It’s very, very different to say, I looked across different data. We have 360s. We have different assessments at play [to assess] managerial quality, or we have functional capability and really come to the table with an informed opinion on what truly the problem is to solve. And I think that that I know on my team. We’re working hard to really build. How do you synthesize information? How do you look at data and extrapolate an insight which is different from listing statistics right? And once you get those insights, then what is the solution or the intervention that you’re proposing, and then to take it over in the next step is, how are you evaluating? How are you looking at the business metrics that that you think net correlation versus causation, of course, when you’re evaluating is quite different. But how can you correlate some sort of business metric to that root cause? So I would say, that’s a big one to build. And again, it’s about practice … about being curious. It’s about leveraging your resources around you in your organization. Having them help you search for the data available. Having your manager help you, you know. Is this an appropriate insight from different pieces of information. And we’re really just using your support network to help you grow that skill.
Jen Recla: Yeah, Annie, I love what you [said] about the data piece. What’s the story this data is telling us? And then what are we going to do with that information and the leading with curiosity. I mean, we’re almost investigators in the learning space, just digging in and trying to find out what’s the real problem? Right? So many times we get people to come to us and say we need this training, and how many times we take a step back and say, “Okay, so what’s the problem you’re trying to solve?” Not even be a training solution. So I think that curiosity piece is so important. I think this all really starts with a foundation of a growth mindset. And I will say, when I started in the learning field, I thought having a growth. Mindset was really a love of learning. I don’t think I fully understand what that means, and what it truly means is that you’re okay with failing, and that you’re leaning into the learning from that that, you see challenges as opportunities, that there’s constant experimentation. There’s constant feedback loops that that are happening where you’re reaching out, and you’re talking to learners. And then you’re iterating. And then you’re talking to learners again, and then you’re iterating. So I think agility, adaptability, building the plane as you go, especially with the way that technology is moving, how fast things are going. AI, all of those things. I think that agility and adaptability, the flexibility to shift sometimes, even in the moment when you’re teaching a live class, for example, I think, is so important. So those, I think, are some foundational skills that I think are really important for learning leaders.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz: Definitely, I completely agree. All those skills like, we’re seeing definitely growing in demand. Everything you said from the growth mindset to the analytical skills. Definitely, should be focus areas for learning professionals. So since you both have been in the L&D industry for a while, I think it would be helpful for our listeners to hear more about your career challenges or obstacles that you’ve faced over the years. Can you speak more to those in in share a little bit about how you’ve worked to overcome those challenges.
Jen Recla: Sure I can share a few. I’d say one of the biggest challenges that I face, and it’s ongoing is shifting mindsets around learning, getting people to think of learning as part of their work. It’s integrated. And then, instead of an addition, or a nice to have, or we’re there to just make presentations and training look pretty. So some solutions we’ve tried to put in place to help alleviate this and shift people’s mindsets is really focusing on leaders. Getting leaders to become champions. That means showing up to learning opportunities. It means maybe teaching, coaching, mentoring others, co-teaching sponsorship, but really not just lip service to. I support learning, but actually investing in themselves, and then teaching back and role modeling that [is] another challenge, I think, is measuring success. Measuring whether this is actually having an impact, and how what percentage of the impact that a learning solution is having is challenging and for us, having annual reports having dashboards, figuring out who cares and what they care about. I think has been really helpful in mitigating that challenge. And then I’d say the third challenge I’ve seen is just sustainability of learning and learning beyond the classroom learning is just a means to an end where the real magic happens is when people apply that back into their work, when they reflect on it, when they iterate their process or their behavior change. And so for us what we’ve done to help mitigate that [is to] create coaching guides. So we’re involving the leader. We’re giving them some talking points and some follow-up activities that they can do with their learners [and] learning reinforcement plans. So having weekly challenges after a learning engagement, so people can apply what they just learned in five minutes, [or] in 10 minutes. They’re actually practicing and experimenting with that, creating a pretty vast learning ecosystem. So we’re giving people options of different ways to learn and engage and providing more customized learning for individuals and teams as well. So it’s flying back to specific goals they have around their business and around their careers.
Annie Lee: Yeah, very similar situation. And I think what I experience at every company is what Jen alluded to, that learning is a tradeoff, right? And I’ve worked at many organizations where they’re field organizations. They [have] hourly workers. They’re [in a] unionized environment where truly, time is money. So it’s, how are you bringing stakeholders along and influencing the leaders that by investing in training kind of the chicken or the egg situation by investing in training. You’re actually solving a bigger problem to solve a more systemic issue right? And I think what I have found to be incredibly helpful is piloting things. So go to your network. And you know my companies are always pretty matrixed. So, finding one leader, there’s always one leader that you have the data to show. Here’s something I’m seeing. Here’s an assumption that I have. Here’s a solution that I think would work. Let’s pilot. Let’s get the win. And then, let’s highlight you as the champion, and then others will come along. And I think, by taking that approach, especially the larger organizations that that I work at rather than L&D coming in and saying, “Here’s a national or a global program. I know time is money but go forth and execute. We don’t have any sure results or ROI yet, but trust us” … that doesn’t work. So it’s how can you start small. How can you tease something up as a proof of concept? I do that a lot, [using a] proof of concept, a pilot, get your small win. Then that person looks like the hero you can. You can highlight their division, and you can take it to their peers. Have a little healthy competition, and get folks enrolled. So that’s one that I constantly see throughout the organization that I see but or have worked for, however, have found to be pretty successful.
Sarah Gallo: Thank you both for sharing those. We’ll be right back in a moment, after a brief message from our sponsor.
[Ad]
As a learning and development (L&D) professional, your job is focused on developing others. But you deserve development, too. Training Industry Courses are designed to help you achieve your professional development goals so that you can continue to drive the business of learning in your organization. From the flagship Certified Professional in Training Management program to workshops and certificates targeting specific functional areas, our research-based courses are taught by instructors with real-world expertise and impart the strategies, tools and competencies you need to be a leader in your training organization. Visit the shownotes for this episode to learn more about Training Industry Courses and to shop the entire catalog.
Sarah Gallo: Well, Jen and Annie, you both have touched on this a little bit, but I do think it’s worth digging in a little bit deeper, because this really is a challenge we hear from our listeners and our audience at training industry all the time which is around getting that stakeholder buy in and support. Do you have any advice on how to navigate that challenge.
Annie Lee: Yeah, I mean, as Jen said, it’s incredibly hard to do. But at the organizations that I work for showing impact and showing evaluation and evaluating your efforts goes an incredibly long way. If learning is sometimes used as a tradeoff, if time is money, how can you quantify the outputs of your efforts. I think. You know, on the functional side, with my experience when it comes to functional topics [it’s] way, easier, right? It’s way easier to say, “I trained you on this safety [course] and the safety [concerns] for your location has gone down. It’s working. Where it gets a little bit more tricky is, of course, leadership right? You can’t really say that there’s causation there, but I can say that my team is on a real journey to show senior leaders, [to] at least try to have some correlation to say the efforts that we’re doing. “Just from the bare basics, here’s the amount of reach and the amount of scale we’ve had.” We just pulled a report last week. We [trained] 13,000 learners in Q1. And because of, you know, this group went through this negotiation tactic, we actually saw an impact in our pricing and in our innovation categories. Right? So then, you get people to listen. Because learning doesn’t become a nice-to-have … it becomes mission critical, and part of the actual strategy of the organization. So I think, that’s really been my window of influences is really showing that the end result.
Jen Recla: Yeah, I agree with Annie. The stories, the metrics showing results can have a huge impact. And also, like Annie said, going out and finding a team that needs help and doing the work, doing it in small group first, and then they you can show the when. I think, also asking for forgiveness maybe not waiting for permission or an invitation, just going out and trying things. I’ve done that a lot in my career, and it’s worked out really well. I haven’t really had anybody come back to me and say, “You shouldn’t have done that.” Relationships, relationships, relationships, focus on building trust and constant communication. I think that has been such a key to success. I would also say, build out your influencing skills, and if you don’t have a strength and influencing, borrow it from someone else, find a champion or champions that can help you in that space. Get your own learning and development team in order meaning making. Make sure that they are aware of their strengths, that we’re producing quality work as a team. If we’re not doing that quality work, we’re not going to be able to gain buy-in from our stakeholders. And then I think, I don’t know how familiar people are with the PIE Model for career success. But what it stands for is performance, image and exposure, and most of our success and careers is through exposure and image. So making sure that we have a great brand for learning and development and organizational development, and then also getting out there, volunteering for different committees, building those relationships, having opportunities where you are more visible is another way to gain that stakeholder item.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz: Perfect. Thank you both for sharing. I love that because building relationship is with senior leaders is really at the core of getting that buy in so thank you for sharing your insights there. I’d love to take a step back now and offer some advice for individuals who are considering a career in L&D. What are some of the benefits of pursuing a career in L&D, and why would you encourage someone to enter the field?
Jen Recla: I think most of the time, because I love this field, and I’m really passionate about it doesn’t feel like work. It feels more like play. This is a great space for creativity and experimentation and fun. So if those are values of yours, I would say, “Go now, run into the learning and development field if you can.” I also think the field is always evolving. There is just so much to learn new things to learn, and it’s pretty vast. There are a variety of different paths you can take in the learning and development field from instructional design to leading the learning function to facilitate or train or coach. So it’s a very broad field. And I also think this is just a group of very passionate people that want to help each other out. I’m just coming back from a conference of learning and talent professionals and there’s just so much joy and passion and just this helpful, supportive nature that you’re stepping into in this field as well.
Annie Lee: Yeah, I would agree. And you know, I was on the receiving end of being in the classroom and having that light bulb go off. And it resulted in a career change. I was going to be a completely different area in in my life, and I think [this is] the coolest job in the world. There’s so much work right, between designing the sessions and influencing stakeholders and getting everyone on board, and this and that… but when you know that one person, you know, you could reach that one person that has that light bulb [go off and you] could change their life. [It] changed my life, being in in the learner seat. That’s very, very powerful, and that makes it all worth it. And I would say that most, keyword most, of the time. This is a very feel-good environment, as Jen said, with the conference that she was in in last week. Right? You know, folks rarely in my experience leave development opportunities, thinking, “You know, that was a waste of time.” You have an impact on folks, and you’re giving them tools that that they can leverage in their careers. And I think that that’s very powerful, and something that that I love. So that would be my call to all you out there.
Sarah Gallo: I love that. It’s a pretty good sell, and we do hear that a lot, that in the training industry the support and advocacy for everyone’s success is something often found in L&D. So I’m glad that’s been the case for you two, as well. We covered a lot of ground today. But before we do wrap up, what’s one final career lesson you’ve learned that you’d like to share with our listeners.
Annie Lee: I think we’ve all probably heard this before. But I it. It’s a tough pill to swallow when the opportunity comes away, and what I mean is when an opportunity that isn’t in your linear path of your career, trajectory comes onto your plate. Do not say no. If folks are your mentors and your supervisors are coming to you, saying that there’s this opportunity, and it is something that doesn’t excite you right away, or you just didn’t picture as your natural next step. Listen. And I know folks always told that to me. And it happened a few years ago where an opportunity got put on my footsteps, and I wanted to turn it down, and it was by far the most instrumental and incredible experience of my professional career. The doors that it opened, this, the business leaders that I was able to work closely with that has now proven to be incredibly advantageous as I’ve moved on to other roles. I would just say, keep all options open. You never know what’s going to come your way. And it’s okay. When you get the question of “Where do you see yourself in five years?” to say I have absolutely no idea, and I’m excited by that. To say that “I don’t know where opportunities are going to come, and I’m going to continue to be curious is,” is completely acceptable, and I highly encourage folks to keep being curious and open minded.
Jen Recla: Yeah, love that, Annie. And what a great example of stepping into a growth mindset, too. It’s just really being open to all the possibilities. For me, I think, remembering that this is the long game. People are people. We’re all doing the best that we can, given circumstances, our access to resources. Our own lived experiences, meeting people where they’re at. Being patient, showing kindness and empathy can go a long way. So I think, remembering that this is a. This is the long game and that it takes time to really establish, build, and sustain a learning culture in an organization, not letting perfection get in the way of progress. We’re all works in progress. We’re constant works in progress. I don’t think there’s ever an arrival. We’re just continually, continuously moving toward that true North Star and knowing that every day we can just get a little bit better.
Sarah Gallo: I love that 100%. Well, on that inspiring note, Jen and Annie, thank you so much for sitting down with us on the podcast today, how can our listeners get in touch with you if they’d like to reach out after the episode.
Jen Recla: You can find me on LinkedIn under Jennifer Recla, or feel free to email me directly I’m at rcc@jenrecla.com.
Annie Lee: Yeah. And I would say, the best bet for me, LinkedIn. I answer all my messages. I look forward to learning and hearing from listeners. So look for me, Annie Lee, and would love to schedule time.
Michelle Eggleston Schwartz: For more resources on L&D career tips and on similar topics, visit the shownotes for this episode at trainingindustry.com/trainingindustrypodcast.
Sarah Gallo: And if you enjoyed this episode, let us know rate or review us wherever you listen to your podcasts until next time.
