Today’s workforce is more globally dispersed than ever before, with some employees logging on to the same virtual meeting oceans apart from their colleagues. While globalization has brought with it numerous opportunities for organizations (and employees), delivering training to an international audience can be a challenge.
In this episode of The Business of Learning, we spoke with Ken Stockman, senior L&D strategist at IBM Consulting, Melaine Mahabir, CPTM, knowledge management associate at Guardian Insurance, and Shezelle Krei, global head of learning and development at Western Union, to learn more about what it takes to train and develop globally dispersed learners.
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Additional resources:
- 3 Tips to Designing an Effective Cultural Awareness Course
- Integrating Cultural Competency Learning into Your DEI Training Strategy: A Crucial Step Toward True Inclusivity
- 3 Key Ways Leaders Build and Support Globally Diverse Teams
To learn more about cultural competency training, download the complimentary infographic below:
The transcript for this episode follows:
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Sarah:
Hi, welcome back to The Business of Learning. I’m Sarah Gallo, senior editor at Training Industry, here with my co-host Michelle Eggleston Schwartz, editor in chief.
Michelle:
Welcome. Today we’re discussing a topic that has long been a challenge for many learning leaders, training a global workforce. And as the world of work continues to expand across borders due to advancements in technology and the rise of remote work, some training professionals listening to this podcast, may in fact be tasked with training a global audience in the future. To learn more about training and international workforce, we’re speaking with Ken Stockman, senior L&D strategist at IBM Consulting, Melaine Mahabir, a Certified Professional in Training Management and knowledge management associate at Guardian Insurance, and Shezelle Krei, global head of learning and development at Western Union. Ken, Melaine, and Shezelle, welcome to the podcast.
Ken:
Thank you very much.
Shezelle:
Thank you.
Melaine:
Thanks for having us.
Sarah:
Perfect. Yes, welcome. Well, to get started, can you each speak to your own experience with training of a global workforce or even just a global group of learners? What challenges did you face along the way, and how did you overcome them?
Shezelle:
I think one of the challenges that we face at Western Union is the volume of need and diversity of need versus the scalability. So having a global development program frameworks in place, still leaves local needs unanswered. And that may call for creative solutions like peer learning, leveraging existing resources, job aids, et cetera. Have we overcome them? I still think that we’re working on some of that because obviously, every organization runs lean in certain departments. And L&D is no different for us. So we tend to build a global framework and then try to meet local needs with our HR business partners. So using that global framework and consistent language, but the scalability can be really difficult for us still.
Ken:
Yeah, I want to pick up on that. So I came into the global organization actually delivering content first, before I switched into developing it. So I got to see firsthand the cultural demands of the different regions that I was going to deliver the content. It took me about, I guess a good maybe year, before I started to piece that together to understand that from a cultural perspective, there were different training needs that needed to be met. And then also in a large multinational organization, business needs. So there’s a local culture based on where you are geographically, but then also from a business perspective, that also had their own business culture.
So when you talk about culture and global environment, I think those are some key elements that we’ve found that really drive, not only how you deliver education, but then when you start to develop it. What do you have to think about, and what do you have to consider in terms of some of the kind of challenges?
So the common things like language and context are always at the top of the list, but then can you really deploy a globally standard education in an organization like this where culture is such a difference between, not only geographies, but then the business culture. And then just kind of delivery variation. How are you delivering education when you go from one country to another country within the same organization? They all have their different demands, whether it’s on how they interact with you face-to-face or how they absorb self-paced education. I think a lot of it is really driven by their cultural contexts. And being aware and sensitive to that in my mind and my experience, makes a huge difference.
Melaine:
Same thing, same thing on my end. Even in the Caribbean, I train 500 plus staff in four major regions. And then also we have our sales force, which is 600 plus in two regions. And then I have agents in 21 countries. So the challenge that I will face is culture, culture, culture, culture. I cannot sing that loud enough. And also, learning not to have an emotional reaction to a cultural way of doing things. Because in Trinidad we would do things a particular way.
So when I now have to change my style a little bit, I have to tweak it. I also have to learn various nuances per product, per region. So a motor product in Trinidad may look and smell the same in Barbados, but because of the laws of the land, there may be some change, some difference. So having to learn those things and understanding, okay, I’m with Barbados right now. I’m with Jamaica right now, I can’t make that joke. So I get mixed up sometimes with what is covered, where, and why. And learning the laws of the land especially, that is a challenge for me. And a constant thing that we trying to work with.
Michelle:
Yeah. Definitely. What works in one region isn’t going to work in another. And so there’s just countless challenges that learning leaders can face when trying to deliver that training on a global scale. So thank you all for sharing. I’m also interested to hear your thoughts on how training a global audience is different from training a local one. Can you walk us through those differences?
Melaine:
Well, for me, there’s a lack of personal touch at times. And I think the pandemic did that because before the pandemic, I would travel to these various countries and do the training. And in person, you touch, you feel, and you see an expression. Now, persons have the option to keep their cameras off. So while I may know someone in my country, in my organization… I may know Ken. So even if Ken’s camera’s off, I could call on Ken [and say], “Ken, I know you’re there. Let me hear from you.” But I would look at Michelle and be like, “Oh, what country is Michelle from? I don’t know. Michelle, could you share a little bit with us?” And another thing for me is name pronunciations because even though we are in the Caribbean, somebody’s name is spelled one way, but it’s pronounced a totally different way. So the pandemic really messed things up with training, but we’re able to do so many other things with technology with training. But that’s the different look for me.
Ken:
Yeah, it’s interesting. And I don’t know if it’s just because I work in a very globally oriented company, but for me, this differentiation between a global audience and a local audience has started to blur. Because I can tell you we’ve got deliveries where we’ve trained people in our US based offices, who are not from the United States. So they are landed practitioners from say India or China who are here on assignment. And it’s a group of them who are bringing their culture with them and all of the context that we talked about before. So while you think you’re delivering a local program, it’s not really when you think about it on a global scale.
So that’s been something that’s very interesting. So it’s kind of like no matter where you are, there you are kind of a thing. Where you find yourself. And if you’re a global faculty member who is coming here to the US or if I am traveling to another region where I’m co-delivering with a local faculty member, we’ve got split dynamics. I’m delivering to an audience that is different from me culturally, and yet my co-facilitator is delivering to a very familiar audience. So it becomes challenging and one of coordination and really under putting a global hat on. And thinking about it before you get there to really make sure that you are in tune with the local audience at the time, if that makes sense.
Shezelle:
Yeah, I think to summarize what both of them are saying is the topics and content delivered to more global audiences are sometimes just more general. And then training for local audience can be more customized and specific. And a lot of times the local audience is, especially if the training is performed by someone local as well, there’s more participation from the trainees. And then when delivered to a global training, kind of what Melaine was saying, sometimes they keep their cameras off and they’re not participating. But local participants probably feel more connected and are more comfortable to participate, especially if they know the person who’s training. So I’d say that that’s what I’ve found.
Ken:
Yeah, I think the other thing too is I found the examples and the stories we use, whether we’re doing developing case studies or delivering stories at the time, also need to be reflected and adapted to your local audience. So I know I’ve learned from experience of using stories about a case study around a US government project that I was on to an audience in China, didn’t really resonate with them because of just the difference in how they interact with their government. So I felt like I lost the meaning of the example that I was trying to convey because I just chose the wrong story. So I think being adaptable in that way and understanding what stories can I use, or how can I adapt this story to be more locally relevant when you’re in a global audience makes a huge difference for learning penetration and reinforcement of the skill you’re trying to build. And not getting it diluted by using a bad example, or a bad story, or inconsistent, or a relevant story.
Melaine:
I agree to that. You just don’t want to lose the learners because they can get turned off immediately. I agree to that, Ken and Shezelle.
Sarah:
Yeah, for sure. I do want to take a moment to dive into that technology aspect here. Because you all have mentioned it can be difficult when people have their cameras off, and that engagement piece can be really hard when you’re training a global audience. So I’m interested to hear how have you all used technology or virtual tools when training a globally dispersed workforce? And do you have any tips for our listeners around how to engage learners in a virtual capacity?
Melaine:
For me, videos, videos, videos to show especially the similarities of a product. So if I’m training only Moto product, I use Moto because it’s easier. I can use a video to lump, okay, you’re covered for this, you’re covered for that. You’re covered in the event of this because everybody would have that because of the loss of the land. And then we could discuss the differences. And I could also send the video out that way for continuous learning they can check it out at any different times.
Breakout rooms, that helps [with learner engagement]. So I can split persons up, as opposed to… When we were training in person, and you walk into a room, and Ken sits with Shezelle, and Michelle sits with Sarah because they know each other. They’re from the same company, same department. No, you split them up. So breakout rooms you can do that. You can split the persons up, so that you can get more engagement, you can get more cooperation. So that is a form of technology that I use. I also use… and Canva for all my infographics, job aids, everything. They are a God send. So that’s it for me with the technology.
Shezelle:
I would say really the same thing. We do a little AI and machine learning powered through our HRAS too, to fuel individual development. But with Melaine, what she said, we have to give kudos to Zoom. We’re connected right now on it for this podcast, and it’s great. And I love the chats and the polls. And we have to use it in a global way, and it’s the best thing that we can use to engage our audience via a video.
Ken:
Yeah, I think that’s the truth. And it’s also how you up skill your faculty to use the technology most effectively. So we have same kind of products that I think most everybody uses, whether it’s WebEx or Zoom. And we started really using this before COVID. So pre-pandemic, we had started to invest a lot more in doing virtual classroom deliveries and really, not only adapting and adopting the technology, but ensuring that our faculty who were delivering on those technologies were doing things like, okay, now is the time to use that poll. Or now is the time to take a quick break, or look to engage the audience, so that you’re really leveraging some of the dynamics that we got used to in a live classroom. So that was really important concept for us was, not only taking the technology in and on, but how do we actually use it effectively? Which I think is a big learning curve for a lot of organizations.
Just putting the technology in place is one thing, but really making it work for you is a big part of the investment. Especially, in the L&D organizations, really making sure that you’re helping your faculty or whoever’s responsible for delivering be really confident and comfortable with the technology. And that might be even taking it out of their hands. So we use things like facilitators, who that’s their whole job is to facilitate these global classrooms. Taking on the heavy lift of working the technology, but leaving the content delivery to our faculty.
And that’s really what they’re expert at. And then I think it’s just also experimenting with new technologies, things like in a self-paced mode. Simulations are a big thing that we’re now deploying much more frequently because it’s not all about the live virtual learning, it’s also about how do we implement really more effective and efficient self-paced programs when we’re not in front of people live. So that’s another big development for us, which is really coordinating these experiments, these technology roll-outs centrally. Assessing what works, assessing what doesn’t work, then maybe even following the market in certain areas. I know our leader keeps telling us that VR is not a big thing for us right now, but I know there’s some organizations out there that are really leveraging VR to use that to help supplement classroom and live virtual training.
Melaine:
And Sarah, you asked about tips. What tips we could give. And I would say ask them what they like. So I would ask Melaine, run a quick survey, possibly just before you do the training, before you even plan any content at times, ask them what they like. How they would like to be engaged, what time they want to have these sessions, et cetera. I would also say attend various meetings or company related activities, and participate in these events because then you meet various teams. And you see how they respond, how they react to their own pairs, and you learn their names. You learn their names, so speak their language. So I’m working with a team in Carousel to go and do a team builder in Carousel Bonaire, Aruba, and St. Martin. And I decided, I don’t know Dutch….
Melaine does not know anything about Dutch, but I use Google Translate. So I typed everything that I needed to say, copy, paste it back into the chat, send emails. And she thought I knew Dutch, so she started writing back to me in Dutch. So she felt very comfortable. So make them comfortable, but use the technology to not hide behind it, but use it to your advantage. The same way I used Google Translate and I have to copy and paste what she said, put it back, and I write her back in Dutch. So when I go to these countries now, she feels comfortable, she’s at ease. So now she would be introducing me and saying, “Ah, this is Malaine Mahabir and she does this.” Because she is comfortable now, because I’ve used the technology. So as I said, ask them what they like, attend and participate in events to see how they react, learn their names, speak the language.
Ken:
That’s a great point. I love that reference because just that Google Translate capability, you’d think about it every day. It’s like, okay, it’s there. How often do I use it? But that’s a great way to really build connection to your learners. I love that example. And I know that in some of my classrooms, we’ve had people use real-time translate through the augmented reality component. When we put up slides in English and they’re not really feeling comfortable, they are able to translate the content from the slide real time just by holding up their phone, and their camera in classroom, and seeing what the slide says. So that whole capability there, even though it’s not something we deploy, it’s there to be helpful. And I think learning about that and as a faculty member saying, “Hey, if you don’t understand this, whip out your phone, and do a real time translation.” That’s a great idea.
Michelle:
Yes. Thank you all for sharing. Those are great tips. I really love what you said there Melaine, about just ask the learners how they want to engage in the training, how they want to interact. That’s going to make everything more successful. And so that’s such a good tip there. We’re going to dive into cultural considerations for global training. After a brief message from our sponsor,
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Michelle:
To create the most impactful training, learning leaders must take cultural differences into consideration when training an international audience. I’d love if you all could share some tips on how to effectively develop and deliver training to a global workforce.
Shezelle:
One of the things I think my team and I really have to consider all the time is inclusive and neutral language. So really think twice before using U.S.-specific humor, phrases, idioms or slang. Because a lot of times our global audience and our learners, we have headquarters all throughout the globe, so they just don’t always understand those U.S. slangs. Regardless, that they speak the language and maybe have been to the country, they still don’t understand it all the time. And it may be really sometimes carrying a different meaning completely.
So when we do develop something, we have people from all over the globe looking at it, editing it, including even our values and behaviors, which Western Union recently did. To say, how does this word translate? What does it mean? What does our behavior statement mean? Because the foreign listeners may or may not understand it, and you need them to embrace what you’re saying and carry that forward. So you need to be really careful. One of the things that the U.S. often says is, two peas in a pod, behind the eight-ball, those types of things. And our foreign counterparts are like, “What are you talking about?” So really keeping that into consideration and letting them have a seat at the table before the learning is deployed to say, does this make sense or not?
Melaine:
Yes, Shezelle. I 100% agree with you. Not all jokes are taken the same, right? There would be language barriers. So even though I am in the Caribbean and a lot of us would have grown up with the same sort of roots and I’m bringing their words that they would use. So for instance, I went to Jamaica once and the HR officer was telling me to take a “juta” taxi — a juta! In Trinidad, juta means if you have little children and you give them a sip of water, whatever remains in that water, we call a juta. So imagine my concern. A juta taxi? Gross.
So only when I got to Jamaican, I saw juta on the taxis. It was Jamaican Unified Taxi Association or something like that. So it was really an eye-opener for me. So not all the jokes. So I have to know what language barriers they have, the greetings, any customs, find out what is acceptable versus what is not acceptable. We may think we know, as Shezelle said, you may think they know it. They speak the same language, but everybody has some difference that they hold true and dear to their heart. So we want to respect that when it comes to cultural considerations.
Ken:
Yeah, I like that. That’s a funny story. Some of the things, language definitely, is something we try to get very focused on. And even from a delivery perspective, I know I’ve been caught before using metaphors that I would be fine using in the US, that don’t translate in other. Specifically, sports metaphors. American sports metaphors like US football and things like that. But then some of the things that we’ve found, things like even time sensitivity. So when delivering content, five minutes, when you give people a five-minute break. So five come back in five minutes. To a U.S. and maybe European audience, that means one thing. But then in India and China, it means a whole other thing. Five minutes really is a loose set of time that could be anywhere between five and 10 minutes. And that’s traditional. You have to just expect that because where you may be thinking really rigidly, it might be something that you have to get used to.
And that also translates into development. When we are developing out our modules and we’re telling people how long a module should take for just giving them that kind of heads up, this module’s going to take you five minutes to complete or 10 minutes to complete. That’s great for an English-speaking audience where English is their native language. Where it’s not, and because 90% of our education goes out in English language, you have to make allowances for that. So really to Melaine’s point, and bringing in other people, bringing in folks from other parts of the organization, other cultures. And I think Shezelle said the same thing, is really giving them an opportunity to vet the material and say, “Okay, yeah, this is going to take 20 minutes really for this is kind of an audience.” So that is a really big thing that we’re very sensitive to and have been caught on a couple of times and called on a couple of times.
And I think the last thing I want to say here is just around also being aware of how your material influences, or is influenced by, or references any kind of political, religious, social, historical things that might be true in one country, not in another. So being sensitive to those aspects of culture are also really important. Especially, when you’re trying to put down in words some core concepts.
Sarah:
Those are all such great considerations. And I think when it comes to avoiding some of those mishaps, it really comes down to having this strong sense of cultural awareness. So do you have any tips on how our listeners can actually build their own cultural awareness?
Shezelle:
I think Melaine and Ken both said it earlier in some way about just asking. Ask about the phrases or general cultural practices from the countries of the people participating. Make time for that at the beginning of the training. Even when you say good morning, say it in multiple languages. Know before where they’re coming from. Hola, bonjour. And then also take the time to say, what language did I not say hello in, and how do I do that? So that they feel heard and seen. And also, I do think that there’s some books out there that you can educate yourself with.
“Culture Map” by Erin Meyer is a book [that can help]. “When Culture Collides” by Richard D. Lewis is also [a helpful resources] … just different idea generators. And then something really simple is to schedule those trainings where participants from multiple time zones, and countries, and regions are really encouraged to attend. Obviously, have the gratitude that they are joining regardless of time zone. And then address, what time is it? And what would you normally be doing? And just spending the couple of minutes to engage them, so that they’re there and present because you’re understanding it might not be the most convenient hour for them. So that’s a long list of different things, but I’d say that that’s some of the things that me and my team are doing.
Ken:
Yeah, I love that part about just getting the learners themselves to share a bit during the learning because especially, in a global environment where you may have people from different geographies attending classes together. So it’s really a global mix of employees, not just folks from a particular geography. Getting that shared cultural framework and reference, I think is a really strong bonding element. So facilitating that when you’re delivering the learning is really important. So I like that Shezelle called that out. Just a couple of other thoughts. For me, when I started learning about this, and maybe it’s just because I had a access to the resource, it was what is my department of state or embassies put out in terms of cultural awareness, education, or learning that you can pull down very quickly today on the web? That makes a huge difference just for getting a little bit of learning around each culture that you’re dealing with.
And then just some other books that I like, David Livermore’s “Leading With Cultural Intelligence.” It’s more for leaders in general, but I think it applies to the learning environment. It’s helpful to help frame that kind of sense of what having cultural intelligence is all about. And this may be just self-serving, but Geert Hofstede, which he’s a former IBM-er and one of the leaders in research around this topic of cross-cultural communications. “Cultures Consequences” was his biggest and most influential book. It’s a long time ago that he did this research, but still really holds up quite powerfully today. So two really strong books that I would recommend that might be useful.
Melaine:
Yeah, I agree with you all a lot on asking a trusted person to share and explain some of the customs, some of the traditions. I tend to research the country, find out what their major foods, some of these city names, things to do in the country. So when I say to Ken, I say, “Hey, Ken, so what you did this weekend, did you go down to St. Lawrence Gap? Did you do this?” Oh, I had the privilege of going to these countries originally, so I was able to go and sometimes I vacation in these countries. So sometimes they’ll say, “How you know we have this?” And then that opens the conversation for them to say, “You know what? She wants to be one of us, so let’s try and help out by participating.” That helps a lot. So researching and of course always asking that trusted person to share and give you the right information. Right. So I agree.
Michelle:
Yes. That is great. Thank you all for sharing. Those are some great resources that you shared that our listeners can check out. Aside from cultural differences, what other challenges might learning leaders run into when training an international workforce and how can they overcome them?
Melaine:
I think Shezelle and Ken spoke about time differences. So trying best to schedule training times. And I learned that the hard way because in Trinidad, Grenada, Barbados, we are all on the same time. Jamaica one hour behind. So I’m scheduling a training for nine o’clock. They are now coming to work at eight o’clock. Who wants to do training at 8:00 AM in the morning, as soon as you get a cup of coffee and sitting down at your desk. Nobody wants to do that. So we had to push. Now, once we have Jamaican’s attending, we have it at 10. We have it at 10, 10:30. But we asked them what would be a better time, two o’clock, one o’clock? And I had to change my lunch hours as well. Normally, they can have lunch twelve because you have Jamaica to take into consideration. So that is one challenge for me, that time difference. There are many different challenges, but that time difference with the global or international workforce to schedule training times that works best for them, not necessarily for you.
Ken:
And on that too, besides the time zones that individually, it’s also… And I know we talked a little bit about the technology here before, but even things like internet bandwidth in different countries have a huge impact on what you can and can’t do. Talked, I think Melaine said a little bit earlier, about having cameras on versus not. So recognizing that if someone turns their camera on, they’ve blown up their system or they’re taken all the bandwidth that household can consume. And so being a little bit more flexible in terms of how you’re training an international workforce, recognizing some of those things, knowing that in advance. We’ve had examples in when dealing with folks in China that their internet is intentionally slowed down during some time. So having to understand that and what you can and can’t do when it comes to even our self-paced learning, making sure that you’re not really pushing so much content in ways that are just going to restrict people to access it.
Because if they can’t access it, then they’re going to turn be turned off or they’re not going to take it. And if you’re relying on that particular type of training program, you don’t want that to be a turnoff. Things like even there’s no YouTube in China, so you can’t use it. And we put a lot of videos out in some of our content that are things from YouTube. We have to find alternate sources for, so that some of our audience can participate and actually see those videos and make them part of their training. So being sensitive to those takes time to understand that, but once you get there, being very intentional and conscientious about remembering that makes a huge difference for our learners.
Shezelle:
Yeah, I would say not all regions around the globe have the same priorities. So keeping in mind that while you may have an overarching training program that needs to be rolled out, different offices, different regions are facing different challenges with their teams, and their team members, and maybe their production. So it’s not always going to be possible to develop content that is 100% relevant for what’s going on in each region. So while self-paced resources may work in some areas, others may require more hands-on methods.
So even if you get everyone to agree on the most important training needs, an overarching global program, you may need to develop it in two or three different types or two different ways to ensure that you can make the largest impact. So you asked, how can we overcome it? And it’s just when you think about designing a program, make sure you put that time in. And like Melaine and Ken said earlier, ask, ask, ask, ask. What’s the best learning methodology? What’s the most engaging for that area based on the content? So don’t just assume, make sure you ask. And then lay out your development plan or your project plan, when you’re creating that training for the different methodologies that are going to stick in that region in.
Sarah:
Yeah, those are all such great tips. Well, we’ve covered so much ground today and you shared so many great resources, which I’m definitely going to be checking out after we finish up this recording. But before we do wrap up, are there any final takeaways or best practices that you’d like to share?
Ken:
For me, it is don’t let global training and the cultural diversity around your organization intimidate you. Take it head on. It gives you a great opportunity to invest in your own learning. And for those of you who work in a very large or even small global organization, learning about other people’s culture, that’s what brings us together certainly as employees, but people secondarily. So invest in it. For me, over the past 10 years being in this role has really opened my eyes to some things about various cultures that I would never have known had I not been engaged in this space. Because I think it’s really been helpful to kind of understand some of the really subtle aspects of culture that you only get from being there. And also, in engaging directly with people who occupy that culture, who come from that culture.
Melaine:
I’d just like to add listening to the learners. Of course, listen, listen. You may be the expert in training, which is perfect. That’s what you’re supposed to do, but you’re not the expert in that culture. You’re not the expert in that country. You’re not the expert in that organization. So listen to them, get feedback from them, accept the differences, and find a workable solution. You may have certain things in place that you want, that you know that if I do it this way, it’s going to impact. And then they hit you for six, as we call it. That’s a cricket reference.
Y’all may say, hit a home run. And so you know that this particular thing that you’re going to do is going to hit them for six, but it doesn’t work. So you have to not take it personal. It’s not about you. It’s about finding a workable solution. And of course, enjoying the process of getting to know others because you get to know me, look how you all know me. You can come to Trinidad now and we take our boat over to Tobago. And we have Barbados, and we have all these places. So enjoy the process of getting to know others, find out different recipes, talk to them what you’re doing this weekend. So don’t take it personal, listen to them, accept the differences, and find a workable solution. So that would be my final takeaways.
Sarah:
Perfect. Well, Shezelle, Ken, and Melaine, thank you so much for speaking with us today and sharing your thoughts. How can our listeners get in touch with you if they would like to reach out?
Shezelle:
LinkedIn Learning for me is the best. This is Shezelle [Krei] and I think if someone wants to reach out, I would love to network with you. That’s the best way.
Ken:
Yeah. I would say for me, LinkedIn. Certainly, I’m very responsive to posts and InMail for sure, if you got access to it.
Melaine:
Once again, LinkedIn. Get this spelling right because those in Trinidad can’t even get it right. Sometimes my parents don’t get it right. So once you get this spelling right, you would be fine to meet with me and we can engage. I have videos there. I do a lot of content, a lot of talking to persons because I want to know, I want to learn. I want to continue growing. So Melaine Mahabir, all right. So you could reach out at LinkedIn.
Michelle:
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Sarah:
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